The Upstream Water Sample
Consider an environmental scientist testing a river for industrial contamination. Downstream at the river delta, a critic claims that chemicals gradually accumulated over decades through modern agricultural runoff.
Instead of debating theories at the delta, the researcher hikes directly to the mountain headwaters and tests the source spring. Finding the exact chemical compound present in high concentration right at the glacial origin immediately disproves the runoff hypothesis: the substance didn't slowly accumulate over miles of riverbed; it was injected directly into the current at the starting point.
The creed in
1) The Gospel of Mark which is the earliest gospel contains no post resurrection appearances,
2) the later Gospels of Matthew includes post resurrection appearances, and
3) Luke includes more detail.
4) But only in the Gospel of John [which is the last Gospel] do we get doubting Thomas where And famously says he doesn't believe that it's the risen Christ, and Jesus says come and touch my wounds, and he touches his way and he said my Lord and my God and Jesus says you believe because you've seen blessed of those who believe that don't see it
5) the myth ends in a moral lesson to believe without evidence.
So, we have is this mythological development of no resurrection appearances and as the time goes on as we get further away from the source the stories get more embellished, fantastical, and preposterous, ending in a moral lesson to "believe without evidence".
- that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
- that he was buried,
- that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
- and that he appeared to Cephas,
- then to the twelve.
- Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
- Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
- Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
- Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47;
- Reginald Fuller, The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10 (ISBN 0-281-02475-8);
- Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90 (ISBN 0-664-20818-5);
- Oscar Cullmann, The Early Church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64;
- Hans Conzelmann, 1 Corinthians, translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1975) p. 251 (ISBN 0-8006-6005-6);
- Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament vol. 1 pp. 45, 80–82, 293;
- R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92 (ISBN 0-8091-1768-1) [From Wiki]
- Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90;
- Oscar Cullmann, The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66;
- R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) p. 81;
- Thomas Sheehan, First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity (New York: Random House, 1986) pp. 110, 118;
- Ulrich Wilckens, Resurrection translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977) p. 2 [From Wiki]
Gerd Lüdemann (Atheist NT professor at Göttingen): “…the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus…not later than three years… the formation of the appearance traditions mentioned in I Cor.15.3-8 falls into the time between 30 and 33 CE.” [The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.]
Robert Funk (Non-Christian scholar, founder of the Jesus Seminar): “…The conviction that Jesus had risen from the dead had already taken root by the time Paul was converted about 33 C.E. On the assumption that Jesus died about 30 C.E., the time for development was thus two or three years at most.” [Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.]
James Dunn (Professor at Durham): “Despite uncertainties about the extent of tradition which Paul received (126), there is no reason to doubt that this information was communicated to Paul as part of his introductory catechesis (16.3) (127). He would have needed to be informed of precedents in order to make sense of what had happened to him. When he says, ‘I handed on (paredoka) to you as of first importance (en protois) what I also received (parelabon)’ (15.3), he assuredly does not imply that the tradition became important to him only at some subsequent date. More likely he indicates the importance of the tradition to himself from the start; that was why he made sure to pass it on to the Corinthians when they first believed (15.1-2) (128). This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus' death. [Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.]
Michael Goulder (Atheist NT professor at Birmingham): “[It] goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion. [“The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oneworld, 1996), 48.]
A. J. M. Wedderburn (Non-Christian NT professor at Munich): “One is right to speak of ‘earliest times’ here, … most probably in the first half of the 30s.” [Beyond Resurrection (Hendrickson, 1999), 113-114.]
N.T. Wright (NT scholar [Oxford, 5+ honorary Ph.ds]): “This is the kind of foundation-story with which a community is not at liberty to tamper. It was probably formulated within the first two or three years after Easter itself, since it was already in formulaic form when Paul ‘received’ it.” [The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress, 2003), 319.]
Many also speak of how early, in general, the creed must have been. Some feel the creed was “in use by AD 30” ( Walter Kasper, Jesus the Christ, trans. V. Geen (Paulist, 1976), 125.). Virtually no scholar puts it beyond the 40s (Gerald O’Collins, What Are They Saying About the Resurrection (Paulist Press, 1978), 112.].).
Peter May: “Christ’s death is generally thought to have occurred in AD 30 (or 33). Paul wrote his letter to the church at Corinth around AD 55, some 25 years later. He had delivered this creed to them when he visited Corinth in AD 51. Few dates could be more certain, because while he was there he was hauled up before the Roman proconsul Gallio (Acts 18:12-17). Gallio, who subsequently conspired against Nero, was the brother of the philosopher Seneca. Proconsulship was a one year post and a Roman stone inscription found early in the 20th century at nearby Delphi records his period of office as being AD 51-52. This date is so firmly established that it has become one of the lynchpins for working out the dates of the rest of New Testament chronology.” [“The Resurrection of Jesus and the Witness of Paul,” (2008) online at bethinking.org]
Critics say, John's gospel culminates with the story of doubting Thomas to communicate the moral lesson to believe without evidence. However, read the last two verses of John 20:
This passage isn't against evidence for faith. In fact, this passage is part of the evidence for Faith. There are those like Thomas who saw the Risen Jesus and believed. But John knows that's not most people, and that's why he includes this account in his Gospel. We don't get to see the evidence (the Risen Jesus) and believe, rather we get to read the evidence (about the Risen Jesus) and believe, but make no mistake, both seeing the evidence and believing and reading the evidence and believing rest on a firm foundation.
So, ironic that people pick the story of doubting Thomas to show that evidence and belief are at odds. Since, John includes the story for one simple reason: to provide evidence for belief, as John puts it. These are written so that you would believe.
The claim that the resurrection of Jesus is a slow-blooming mythological legend is refuted by the earliest historical records we possess. Far from evolving across generations, the definitive claim that Jesus conquered death and appeared bodily to multiple witnesses was formulated and proclaimed while the original eyewitnesses were still alive and accessible for cross-examination. When the foundational confession dates back to the immediate wake of the crucifixion, there is simply no chronological runway for myth to replace reality. The resurrection wasn't the final chapter of a legendary evolution; it was the explosive spark that ignited the movement from day one.
Objection A: "No matter how well-evidenced, supernatural claims can never be the best historical explanation unless we first establish prior knowledge of the supernatural."
Reply: Labeling this a "supernatural bias" gets it backward—it is an anti-supernatural or pro-naturalism bias. Dismissing evidence before examining it requires assuming that only physical, material explanations are valid. However,
Objection B: "Refusing to reject the supernatural leads to special pleading for one specific religion."
Reply: Special pleading occurs when someone claims an unjustified exception to a universal rule without providing a reason. Pointing out the logical flaws of pure naturalism and following the historical evidence where it leads is not special pleading—it is providing the exact justification the rule requires. Presuming naturalism without argument, while demanding that any non-natural explanation meet an impossible standard, is the true double standard.
Objection C: "How do you account for the gap between the events and the written records? A few days or weeks is more than enough time for legends to develop."
Reply: The speed of myth-making depends heavily on whether living eyewitnesses are present to control the narrative. The
Objection D: "The creed in 1 Corinthians 15 lacks narrative detail, so it cannot prove that the early teachings match what ended up in the Gospels."
Reply: The 1 Corinthians 15 formula was designed as a dense, mnemonic summary of foundational facts, not an exhaustive narrative biography. Even so, it explicitly lists every pillar found in the Gospels: the sacrificial death of Jesus, His burial in a tomb, His bodily resurrection on the third day, and distinct post-resurrection appearances to individuals (Peter, James, Paul) and groups (the Twelve, 500 brethren). The narrative skeleton is identical.
Objection E: "We know people cannot return from the dead; doing so violates the laws of nature."
Reply: This objection assumes philosophical naturalism is true. Applying Hitchens’s razor—"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"—an unproven assumption of naturalism carries no weight. If a transcendent God exists, a miracle does not "break" a law of nature; it represents an external cause introducing a new effect into the system. Since naturalism is a
Objection F: "You can believe in God and still doubt the resurrection. Orthodox Jews are not naturalists, yet they reject Jesus' resurrection."
Reply: While modern rabbinic Judaism rejects the resurrection of Jesus, the entire original movement—from the Twelve apostles to early converts in Jerusalem—consisted entirely of devout first-century Jews. Furthermore, thousands of Jewish people throughout history, including many
Objection G: "1 Corinthians 15 came in the 50s, Mark had no resurrection in the 60s, and then Matthew/Luke added it later. That is textbook mythological evolution."
Reply: This claim completely misrepresents Mark. Mark 16:6–7 explicitly records the empty tomb, the angel's proclamation ("He has risen; he is not here"), and the promise that the disciples would see Him in Galilee just as He told them. Mark did not leave out the resurrection; he recorded the empty tomb and pointed directly to the upcoming appearances. Furthermore, the
Objection H: "The creed says Christ died 'in accordance with the Scriptures,' but how could that be true if Mark was the earliest Gospel?"
Reply: In the first century, "the Scriptures" referred to the Jewish Tanakh (the Old Testament). The early church was pointing to centuries-old prophetic passages - most notably Isaiah 53 (the Suffering Servant who bears the sins of many) and the sign of Jonah (resurrection after three days)—which were written long before the New Testament era.
Objection I: "Using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning and a non sequitur."
Reply: The Bible is not a single, monolithic book written by one person. It is an anthology of 66 distinct historical documents across multiple genres, written by over 40 independent authors on three continents over 1,500 years. Citing Paul’s epistles, the Synoptic Gospels, and Johannine literature to corroborate a historical event is identical to an ancient historian cross-referencing multiple separate archival sources bound together in a modern library anthology.
Objection J: "How does showing that a story was told early prove that it wasn't a myth?"
Reply: Myths and legends require chronological runway - typically multiple generations—to displace living memory without being exposed by surviving eyewitnesses or hostile contemporaries. When the core historical claim is codified within months of the event and publicly proclaimed in the very city where the death and burial occurred. There is simply no time or cultural vacuum for legendary development to invent the core facts.
The theory that the resurrection of Jesus developed as a late legendary embellishment completely unravels when evaluated against hard historical chronology. Far from evolving over generations of oral exaggeration, the foundational confession that Jesus died, rose bodily on the third day, and appeared to named witnesses was codified and proclaimed within mere months of the crucifixion itself.
By grounding this testimony in the earliest apostolic memory while hundreds of living eyewitnesses were still available for cross-examination, the New Testament record leaves zero chronological runway for myth to replace reality. The resurrection accounts were not the fantastical culmination of a decades-long game of telephone—they were the foundational historical bedrock that launched the Christian movement from day one.
I saw a post by an atheist YouTuber that bothered me could you respond to this it's only empty tomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMufkaxs2Go
ReplyDeleteI’ll start with your link.
ReplyDeleteFirst you’re confusing naturalism with super determinism.
Second you don’t need the supernatural for free will.
Third you’re trying to use the definition of a man made term, that doesn’t even have an agreed upon definition, to prove how the world works.
The whole thing was pointless to read.
Next is your argument you’re trying to support with that link.
Since we have never proven someone has risen from the dead before, anything we could point to that has been seen before is far more likely.
For instance,
He could have faked his death.
Someone who looked like him could have claimed to be him.
People could have mistaken other people for him. (Like Elvis.)
He could have actually survived.
His followers could have lied to keep things going.
His followers could’ve suffered grief hallucinations.
Or any combination of the above.
Notice how at no point I said that the supernatural is impossible. That’s because this comment is being made under the assumption that the supernatural in general is possible.
The thing is, just accepting it as possible doesn’t mean that you can accept it all as true. If we did that we’d have to accept every supernatural claim.
So what possible supernatural explanations are there?
First he could be one of many types of undead.
Vampire.
Revenant.
Zombie. (historical not movie.)
Ghoul. (depending on the type.)
Ghost. (again depending on the type.)
Etc.
Second he could have been replaced by any of the many creatures that are claimed to impersonate people.
Jinn.
Doppelgänger.
Kitsune.
Skin walker.
Etc.
Third his body could have been possessed by one of the many creatures that do that.
Wraith.
Wight.
Demon.
Jinn. (Again.)
Ghost. (Again.)
Etc.
Finally he could have been a god from another pantheon tricking people.
That’s a lot of possibilities here, what have you done to disprove them all?
I don't know what you mean by "super determinism". That, according to wiki, is In quantum mechanics, a loophole in Bell's theorem.
DeleteEvents that happen can either be 1) determined by antecedent physical conditions or random chance. That's why reason or freewill can't logically exist because it's either determined by (1) or (2)
Do we need the supernatural for free will? We need something that is not constrained by the physical laws. Supernaturalism fits the bill.
Am I using "the definition of a man made term...."? All terms are man made!
"....that doesn’t even have an agreed upon definition, to prove how the world works."
Do you mean "naturalism"? Naturalism means in this context, only the physical exists and only natural laws and forces operate in the universe.
As for the rest of your post, see here for why the Resurrection is the best explanation: https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-is.html
I'll let you argue for the existence of those various creatures....
Hey it's me again what I wanted you to respond to was his claims that Jesus wasn't buried in tombs could you give a defense of the empty tomb traditions
ReplyDeleteI address that here https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-is.html
ReplyDelete