1) The Gospel of Mark which is the earliest gospel contains no post resurrection appearances,
2) the later Gospels of Matthew includes post resurrection appearances, and
3) Luke includes more detail.
4) But only in the Gospel of John [which is the last Gospel] do we get doubting Thomas where And famously says he doesn't believe that it's the risen Christ, and Jesus says come and touch my wounds, and he touches his way and he said my Lord and my God and Jesus says you believe because you've seen blessed of those who believe that don't see it
5) the myth ends in a moral lesson to believe without evidence.
So, we have is this mythological development of no resurrection appearances and as the time goes on as we get further away from the source the stories get more embellished, fantastical, and preposterous, ending in a moral lesson to "believe without evidence".
So, we have is this mythological development of no resurrection appearances and as the time goes on as we get further away from the source the stories get more fantastical, preposterous ending in a moral lesson to believe without evidence.
There are major problems with this.
The Resurrection as a mythological development idea is subverted by the early creed founded 1st Corinthians 15 while First Corinthians was written in the early 50s which predates Mark's Gospel and it contains an early creed that likely goes back to within five years of the death of Jesus
This oral creed says:
- that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
- that he was buried,
- that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
- and that he appeared to Cephas,
- then to the twelve.
- Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
- Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
- Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Belief in the death, burial, resurrection, and reappearance to Peter and the Twelve in verses 3–5, are an early pre-Pauline kerygma or creedal statement. Biblical scholars note the antiquity of the creed, possibly transmitted from the Jerusalem apostolic community. Though, the core formula may have originated in Damascus, with the specific appearances reflecting the Jerusalem community. It may be one of the earliest kerygmas about Jesus' death and resurrection,
Early kerygma:
- Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47;
- Reginald Fuller, The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10 (ISBN 0-281-02475-8);
- Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90 (ISBN 0-664-20818-5);
- Oscar Cullmann, The Early Church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64;
- Hans Conzelmann, 1 Corinthians, translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1975) p. 251 (ISBN 0-8006-6005-6);
- Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament vol. 1 pp. 45, 80–82, 293;
- R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92 (ISBN 0-8091-1768-1) [From Wiki]
- Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90;
- Oscar Cullmann, The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66;
- R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) p. 81;
- Thomas Sheehan, First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity (New York: Random House, 1986) pp. 110, 118;
- Ulrich Wilckens, Resurrection translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977) p. 2 [From Wiki]
The historical facts do not fit well with the idea that the resurrection appearances are the result of mythological development over time as you move further away from the source, so that's the first problem. They do fit well with the fact that Jesus died, was buried, was risen on the third day, and was seen by multiple people is what Christians believed from the beginning
More evidence for 1 Cor 15 bening very early
Gerd Lüdemann (Atheist NT professor at Göttingen): “…the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus…not later than three years… the formation of the appearance traditions mentioned in I Cor.15.3-8 falls into the time between 30 and 33 CE.” [The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.]
Robert Funk (Non-Christian scholar, founder of the Jesus Seminar): “…The conviction that Jesus had risen from the dead had already taken root by the time Paul was converted about 33 C.E. On the assumption that Jesus died about 30 C.E., the time for development was thus two or three years at most.” [Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.]
James Dunn (Professor at Durham): “Despite uncertainties about the extent of tradition which Paul received (126), there is no reason to doubt that this information was communicated to Paul as part of his introductory catechesis (16.3) (127). He would have needed to be informed of precedents in order to make sense of what had happened to him. When he says, ‘I handed on (paredoka) to you as of first importance (en protois) what I also received (parelabon)’ (15.3), he assuredly does not imply that the tradition became important to him only at some subsequent date. More likely he indicates the importance of the tradition to himself from the start; that was why he made sure to pass it on to the Corinthians when they first believed (15.1-2) (128). This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus' death. [Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.]
Michael Goulder (Atheist NT professor at Birmingham): “[It] goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion. [“The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oneworld, 1996), 48.]
A. J. M. Wedderburn (Non-Christian NT professor at Munich): “One is right to speak of ‘earliest times’ here, … most probably in the first half of the 30s.” [Beyond Resurrection (Hendrickson, 1999), 113-114.]
N.T. Wright (NT scholar [Oxford, 5+ honorary Ph.ds]): “This is the kind of foundation-story with which a community is not at liberty to tamper. It was probably formulated within the first two or three years after Easter itself, since it was already in formulaic form when Paul ‘received’ it.” [The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress, 2003), 319.]
Many also speak of how early, in general, the creed must have been. Some feel the creed was “in use by AD 30” ( Walter Kasper, Jesus the Christ, trans. V. Geen (Paulist, 1976), 125.). Virtually no scholar puts it beyond the 40s (Gerald O’Collins, What Are They Saying About the Resurrection (Paulist Press, 1978), 112.].).
Peter May: “Christ’s death is generally thought to have occurred in AD 30 (or 33). Paul wrote his letter to the church at Corinth around AD 55, some 25 years later. He had delivered this creed to them when he visited Corinth in AD 51. Few dates could be more certain, because while he was there he was hauled up before the Roman proconsul Gallio (Acts 18:12-17). Gallio, who subsequently conspired against Nero, was the brother of the philosopher Seneca. Proconsulship was a one year post and a Roman stone inscription found early in the 20th century at nearby Delphi records his period of office as being AD 51-52. This date is so firmly established that it has become one of the lynchpins for working out the dates of the rest of New Testament chronology.” [“The Resurrection of Jesus and the Witness of Paul,” (2008) online at bethinking.org]
The moral lesson?
Critics say, John's gospel culminates with the story of doubting Thomas to communicate the moral lesson to believe without evidence. However, read the last two verses of John 20:
Critics say, John's gospel culminates with the story of doubting Thomas to communicate the moral lesson to believe without evidence. However, read the last two verses of John 20:
This passage isn't against evidence for faith. In fact, this passage is part of the evidence for Faith. There are those like Thomas who saw the Risen Jesus and believed. But John knows that's not most people, and that's why he includes this account in his Gospel. We don't get to see the evidence (the Risen Jesus) and believe, rather we get to read the evidence (about the Risen Jesus) and believe, but make no mistake, both seeing the evidence and believing and reading the evidence and believing rest on a firm foundation.
So, ironic that people pick the story of doubting Thomas to show that evidence and belief are at odds. Since, John includes the story for one simple reason: to provide evidence for belief, as John puts it. These are written so that you would believe
Objection A - No matter how well they are evidenced, supernatural claims will never be the best explanation for any historical event, unless we get to establish some actual knowledge about the supernatural first. Call that a supernatural bias.
Reply: First, that's not a supernatural bias, it's an anti-supernatural bias or a pro-naturalism bias. But, as argued previously, Philosophical Naturalism is logically self-refuting, so we have good reasons to reject a physical-only model for the world and no good reasons to accept it. At least none have been presented.
Objection B - By not rejecting the supernatural will unavoidably lead to special pleading in favor of the religion one is willing to prove.
Objection B - By not rejecting the supernatural will unavoidably lead to special pleading in favor of the religion one is willing to prove.
Reply - Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the exception. It's a double standard.
The key is "without justifying the exception"; but I have justified it in the link above. Not only that, but naturalism is simply presumed. In what world is one view, which is simply presumed true, favored over one that has a valid argument for it?
Reply - I have already addressed this issue in Do Late Accounts and No Eyewitnesses Justify Doubting The Historical Authenticity of People & Events?
Objection D - The creed in 1 cor 15 doesn't actually go into any detail regarding what those experiences were, so it can't really be used to say that the resurrection appearances being taught in the first few months are basically what ended up in the gospels.
Reply - What detail is it missing? Death, burial, Resurrection, list of five different appearances are there...
Reply - This assumes that Philosophical Naturalism is true, but we know that it's actually a self-refuting viewpoint
If one is simply assuming that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then it can be cut away with Hitchens's razor - "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"
If one does not claim that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then this objection falls apart.
If one does claim that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then they need to provide the reason/evidence. And need to address the argument in the link above.
Therefore, we can safely say the following: Philosophical Naturalism is false and an objection based on that can be, and should be, dismissed
Objection F - You can believe in Yahweh specifically and still think that it is extremely unlikely that someone would be raised from the dead. Orthodox Jews do not believe Jesus was raised, and they are hardly naturalists.
If one is simply assuming that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then it can be cut away with Hitchens's razor - "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"
If one does not claim that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then this objection falls apart.
If one does claim that Philosophical Naturalism is true, then they need to provide the reason/evidence. And need to address the argument in the link above.
Therefore, we can safely say the following: Philosophical Naturalism is false and an objection based on that can be, and should be, dismissed
Reply - First there are Jews who did believe that Jesus rose from the dead; for example all the disciples were Jewish, secondly there are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah today And Jesus did fulfill the requirements to confirm Himself as the Messiah. Additionally, Jesus did fulfill the Messianic prophecies
Objection G - So you have Paul’s 1 Cor 15 version [50s], then you have Mark's Gospel, which has no resurrection [60s], then you have Matthew and Luke gospels that include the resurrection. This is exactly how myths work, you just made a very strong argument for mythicism
Reply: This falls apart when one reads Mark 16:6-7 - And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.” Mark didn't leave out the Resurrection!
Objection H - The oral creed says that christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. But can that be since Mark’s the earliest gospel.
Reply: It makes sense when you realise that it's speaking of Old Testment; mosy likely Jonah and Isaish 53
Objection I - The Bible isnt evidence that the Bible is true. Thats circular reasoning and non sequitur.
Objection I - The Bible isnt evidence that the Bible is true. Thats circular reasoning and non sequitur.
Reply: The Bible is a collection of 66 "books" of various genres, written by over 40 people, on 3 continents over the course of centuries that the church put into a single binder, i.e. book. So, it's like saying "circular reasoning" becuse one cites an entry in an Encyclopedia to support another entry by a different author in the same Encyclopedia. It's an absurd objection
Reply: Since the Resurrection was told early it couldn't have developed over time
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ Is a Historical Fact
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus of the Bible in ancient non-Christian sources
Do Late Accounts and No Eyewitnesses Justify Doubting The Historical Authenticity of People & Events?
I saw a post by an atheist YouTuber that bothered me could you respond to this it's only empty tomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMufkaxs2Go
ReplyDeleteI’ll start with your link.
ReplyDeleteFirst you’re confusing naturalism with super determinism.
Second you don’t need the supernatural for free will.
Third you’re trying to use the definition of a man made term, that doesn’t even have an agreed upon definition, to prove how the world works.
The whole thing was pointless to read.
Next is your argument you’re trying to support with that link.
Since we have never proven someone has risen from the dead before, anything we could point to that has been seen before is far more likely.
For instance,
He could have faked his death.
Someone who looked like him could have claimed to be him.
People could have mistaken other people for him. (Like Elvis.)
He could have actually survived.
His followers could have lied to keep things going.
His followers could’ve suffered grief hallucinations.
Or any combination of the above.
Notice how at no point I said that the supernatural is impossible. That’s because this comment is being made under the assumption that the supernatural in general is possible.
The thing is, just accepting it as possible doesn’t mean that you can accept it all as true. If we did that we’d have to accept every supernatural claim.
So what possible supernatural explanations are there?
First he could be one of many types of undead.
Vampire.
Revenant.
Zombie. (historical not movie.)
Ghoul. (depending on the type.)
Ghost. (again depending on the type.)
Etc.
Second he could have been replaced by any of the many creatures that are claimed to impersonate people.
Jinn.
Doppelgänger.
Kitsune.
Skin walker.
Etc.
Third his body could have been possessed by one of the many creatures that do that.
Wraith.
Wight.
Demon.
Jinn. (Again.)
Ghost. (Again.)
Etc.
Finally he could have been a god from another pantheon tricking people.
That’s a lot of possibilities here, what have you done to disprove them all?
I don't know what you mean by "super determinism". That, according to wiki, is In quantum mechanics, a loophole in Bell's theorem.
DeleteEvents that happen can either be 1) determined by antecedent physical conditions or random chance. That's why reason or freewill can't logically exist because it's either determined by (1) or (2)
Do we need the supernatural for free will? We need something that is not constrained by the physical laws. Supernaturalism fits the bill.
Am I using "the definition of a man made term...."? All terms are man made!
"....that doesn’t even have an agreed upon definition, to prove how the world works."
Do you mean "naturalism"? Naturalism means in this context, only the physical exists and only natural laws and forces operate in the universe.
As for the rest of your post, see here for why the Resurrection is the best explanation: https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-is.html
I'll let you argue for the existence of those various creatures....
Hey it's me again what I wanted you to respond to was his claims that Jesus wasn't buried in tombs could you give a defense of the empty tomb traditions
ReplyDeleteI address that here https://deconstructingchristiandeconstruction.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-is.html
ReplyDelete