A Rebuttal to "A Rebuttal to Seven Arguments Which Show That Universalism is a False Doctrine"

This is a response to this rebuttal  of my original Seven Arguments Which Show That Universalism is a False Doctrine that I posted on Reddit


The Aionios Argument

Objection A: Since this judgment of "eternal" fire is said to serve as a warning, it cannot be a reference to a postmortem judgment of the Sodomites. Such judgment could not be observed as a lesson for the living; furthermore, the Sodomites would not presently be experiencing their final punishment, which awaits the day of judgment and the lake of fire. The "consuming fire" is God himself (Heb. 12:29)

Reply: First problem is that Hebrews 12:29 uses the word "katanaliskó" not aionios; the former means "to use up", the latter means "agelong, eternal" - this seems to be equivocating on what is in the text.

Secondly if we use the this defintion of Aionios that is proposed then we will have a problem with the following veres:

Matthew 18:8, “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.”
Matthew 25:41, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;”

Are we to think that Matthew when says that people are being cast "into the eternal fire", he means that they are cast into God!?!?!

So on those 2 points we can reject this proposed rebuttal.

Objection B: When aionios modifies words like "life," "glory?" "righteous-ness," "salvation," "wrath," and "punishment," could it not be that the writers are simply speaking of these things as coming from God, and being manifestations of His character or attri-butes, which are eternal?

Reply: "could it not be" is not a a convincing argument. To be convincing it should be the best explanation. No reason is given why that is the best explantion, and given the problem with being cast "into the eternal fire" - i.e. God; one can reject this until, at least a cogent argument is presented.

Objection C: Since this judgment of "eternal" fire is said to serve as a warning, it cannot be a reference to a postmortem judgment of the Sodomites. Such judgment could not be observed as a lesson for the living;...

Reply: One can, as countless other Christians have in the past, read this warning and heed it. So, this definately can be a lesson for the living!

Objection D: ....furthermore, the Sodomites would not presently be experiencing their final punishment, which awaits the day of judgment and the lake of fire.

Reply: So what? How does the fact that the day of judgment has not yet been imposed mean that everyone is saved?

Argument 2 - the Two Ways argument

Objection E: The problem with these texts is the attempt to make them a reference to eternal fates in the afterlife. In fact, the condition of those in the afterlife isn’t mentioned explicitly anywhere in the entire OT. The fate of the wicked after death is nowhere mentioned in the entirety of the OT.

Reply: We have the New Testament to refer. See Annihilationism and Revelation 20

Four facts we can glean from Revelation 20

1) The devil was thrown into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet, [vs 10]

2) where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [vs 10]

3) The lake of fire is the second death. [vs 14]

4) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was also thrown into the lake of fire. [vs 15]  [See the link above for the full argument.]

Objection F: I would like to add, that there’s an assumption that if God brings a judgement, that the purpose of that judgement is apparently anything other than disciplinary, and isn’t for the purpose of purification. I would like to argue that this assumption is wrong in a future post.

Reply: I have assumed nothing; if that is where the text leads, then I follow.

Argument 3 - the no righteous judgment argument

Objection G: this is an outright straw man. I don’t know of any evangelical universalists that believe God doesn’t exercise judgment upon sinners. The only difference is the universalist believes that God’s judgement upon sinners is for the purpose of reconciliation, and ultimate restoration.

Reply: Perhaps I should rephrase the title of the argument, but it seems you reacted to the title, not the actual argument: Revelation offers a picture of God’s righteous judgment against a sinful world, in overt rebellion against himself, as the bowls of his wrath are poured out in Revelation 16. The Beast, the False Prophet, and the Devil are later seized by the Lord and unrepentant sinners are thrown into “the lake of fire” - which is the second death.

Argument 4 - wise and foolish virgins argument

Objection H: this argument rests upon a futurist interpretation of the Gospel accounts. I am a preterist concerning Matthew 24-25 (most of 25).

Reply: Above. you went on about what you thought I assumed. Yet here you assume preterism, and that is the lens upon which you interpret the Bible. If one is going to offer an objection based on preterism they should at least be able to articulate why it is the correct view.  

Argument 5 - the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy

Objection I: Our debate is ultimately what the apostles believe, as revealed in their letters. This means that any text that’s presented to prove something must be scrutinized in its context. 1 Corinthians 15 is an excellent example of what happens when our theology isn’t derived from a proper understanding of the Bible. 

“But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭20‬-‭22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is immediately before the passages quoted in the OP. Directly in the same context. Now, unless there’s a valid reason to conclude that the all in Adam isn’t the same all in Christ, then presumably all will be resurrected to life. 

Reply:  The first part of 1 Cor 15:22 is clear. All the descendants of Adam die physically. The phrase in Adam all die means that all who are in Adam die physically. We are all in Adam. The second part of the verse depends on the meanings of the expressions "in Christ" and shall be made alive.

Does in Christ here refer exclusively to believers, as it typically does throughout Paul’s writings when he is referring to those who are in Christ (e.g., 1 Cor 3:1; 15:18; 2 Cor 5:17; 12:2; Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 2:13; Phil 1:1)? 

Four reasons that Paul was not teaching universalism in this verse

First of all, notice that “shall be made alive” is future. Believers already have everlasting life (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47). Believers already have eschatological salvation (John 3:17-18; 5:24; 6:35; 11:26; Eph 2:8-9; 1 Thess 5:10).

Second, the context of 1 Corinthians is about believers exclusively, not about believers and unbelievers. See this article entitled “The Strongest Argument for Universalism in 1 Corinthians 15:20–28,” by Andrew Wilson 

And we can note who this epistle was addressed to: the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus - i.e believers

Third, the promise of everlasting life to the believer is an exclusive promise. Only those who believe have that life (John 3:14-18, 36; 5:39-40).

Fourth, the Scriptures are clear that there is no such thing as people dying in unbelief, then later gaining everlasting life (John 8:24; Heb 9:27; Rev 20:15).

Objection J:  The resurrection of the lost means that all of creation has been reclaimed by Christ. For some inexplicable reason, OP has concluded that those in the lake of fire are enemies of God. Why? Christ has already reclaimed them, they belong to Him, even as they’re going through the process of purification before entering into the new Jerusalem. That’s the hinge OP’s entire argument hangs upon, but there’s really no reason to conclude that those Christ has resurrected are His enemies anymore.

Reply: Again see Annihilationism and Revelation 20; we have good reason to conclude that  those in the lake of fire are enemies of God. 

Argument 6 - God delaying the day of judgment argument

Objection K:  the assumption that OP is making is that every single reference to future judgement from the different authors’ perspectives is the same event. It could be, it could not be, but that’s the point of contention.

Reply: This is a strawman fallacy. No where did I say that "every single reference to future judgement from the different authors’ perspectives is the same event.". 

Objection L: Is Peter speaking of an impending national judgement at the hands of the Romans, or a still future eschatological judgement dealing with the afterlife?....Presuming OP affirms eternal Conscious Torment, this presents a problem. It would strongly suggest that, if a future judgement, then Annihilationism would be the exegetically appropriate interpretation. Given OP’s final link, I assume he doesn’t affirm Annihilationism. This is a problem for him if he wants a futurist interpretation of 1 Peter, as well as maintain ECT.

Reply: This is too vague to comment on; You will have to specify which verses you speak of. 

Argument 7 - the removal argument

Objection L: I’m sorry to bang this drum again, but, having a preterist interpretation provides no issue between this passage and universalism. This event already happened when the old religious system of Israel was obliterated. The church “kingdom that cannot be shaken” was in fact not shaken when Israel was almost annihilated.

Reply: It seems that the lynchpin of your rebuttal is preterism. So the ball is in your court to show that it's the correct view. 

Objection M:  “For our God is a consuming fire.” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭29‬ ‭NKJV‬‬. As I’ve mentioned, what the purpose and nature of this fire is would have to be examined, but if this fire indeed is a purifying fire,...

Reply: This objection relies on the word "IF" - "if this fire indeed is a purifying fire..."  Well is it? Where is the argument that it is? 

Objection N: then the context suggests that this is the kind of God who’s judgements, always are from the expression of love, as the author stated earlier:  ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭7‬

Reply: To whom do you think the author was speaking to? That's an important element of the context to consider. The preceding was Hebrews 11, the great chapter about those who are walking by faith.  Do all walk by faith? No. In context this to fgaithful believers; you are taking it pout of context to apply it to unrepentant unbelievers 

Annihilationism and Revelation 20

Why Annihilationism is Wrong

Annihilationism the belief that after the Last Judgment, all damned humans and fallen angels including Satan will be totally destroyed, rather than made to suffer for eternity in hell after death [i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment or ECT]. Alternatively, the Devil, Beast, and False Prophet will suffer ECT while the rest of the wicked will cease to exist, 

I do not think that Annihilationism has a Biblical basis.

I don't think most verses used for Annihilationism or ECT are decisive, except for Rev 20:10-15

The key verse - 

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Four facts we can glean from this:

1) The devil was thrown into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet, [vs 10]

2) where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [vs 10]

3) The lake of fire is the second death. [vs 14]

4) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was also thrown into the lake of fire. [vs 15]

What can we infer:

First, John calls "suffering day and night forever" in the lake of fire, "second death". That’s where those in verse 14 go; implying they suffer the same fate.

Secondly, after differentiating between 1st and 2nd death, John makes no distinction between 2nd death and this any other "alternate death" for the wicked in the lake of fire.  Since he does not, then this is good evidence that the all wicked suffer the second death, ECT

Other 2nd death passages:

Revelation 21:8: “The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

This seems to indicate that all unbelievers with suffer the 2nd death

Revelation 2:11: “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the *second death**.”

Confer overcomers here with 1 John 5:4 - For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Revelation 20:6 “Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

Words/Verses/Passages Typically Used For Annihilationism

Isaiah 66:24 - “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Isaiah 66:24 is a snapshot of hell, meaning the second death; a symbol, illustrating what final judgement is like. If it's not that, then it can't be the final state of the wicked, which is what we're discussing. So what does that snapshot show? Ruin devastation destruction, not "ceasing to exist"; the corpses have not ceased to exist. As a counterpoint, corpses feel not pain, thus this isn't teaching ECT.

Additionally, the last part of Isaiah 66:24 "and they will be a horror to all mankind". How is the non-existence of the wicked a horror to all mankind? If Isaiah is a snapshot of the final state of the wicked, and you think that is annihilationism, why is it a portrait of dead bodies, worms, fire?

And look at the beginning of Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies"; how does one look at that which has "ceased to exist"?

“Destruction” or “perish” (Greek: apoleia or olethros Matt 7:13; John 3:16; 17:12; Acts 8:20; Rom 9:22-23; Phil 1:28; 3:19; 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; 1 Tim 6:9).

apóleia from Strong's apóleia: destruction, loss Definition: destruction, loss Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.   684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).\

olethros from Strong's olethros: destruction, death Definition: destruction, death Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.  3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

“Death” (Greek: thanatos or apothnesko Rom 1:32; 6:21; 7:5; 8:6; 1 Cor 15:21-22; 15:56; 2 Cor 2:16; 7:10; James 1:15; 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8)

thanatos from Strong's Definition: to put to death Usage: I put to death, subdue; pass: I am in danger of death, am dead to, am rid of, am parted from.

apothnesko from Strong's Definition: to die Usage: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.


“End” (Greek: telos Rom 6:21-22; 2 Cor 11:15; Phil 3:19; 1 Pet 4:17)

telos from Strong's Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.


“Disintegration/corruption” (phthora) (Gal 6:8; 2 Pet 1:4; 2:12).

phthora from Strong's Definition: destruction, corruption Usage: corruption, destruction, decay, rottenness, decomposition.


burned up chaff, trees, weeds, branches (Matt 3:12; 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6).

Strong's: 2618 Transliterated: katakausei Root: κατακαίω 1) to burn up, consume by fire

a destroyed house, discarded fish, uprooted plant, chopped down tree (Matt 7:27; 13:48; 15:13; Luke 13:7)

None of these equal cease to existthe Day of Judgment is compared to OT examples of the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot’s wife turned into salt (Luke 17:27, 29, 32).
None of these equal "cease to exist"

wicked compared to ground up powder or cut to pieces (Matt 21:41, 44; 24:51).

Ground up powder or cut to pieces does not equal cease to exist

**Not one verse above says "cease to exist".**


Another defense: A plain reading of those texts suggest finality, or annihilation 

There are two crucial problems with a literalist or "plain sense" approach to the text.
.
The first problem is that in a plain sense approach, we most often assume our own frame of reference for the text and assume that what makes sense to us from our own cultural, social, religious, or emotional context is what the text itself means to say.

The second problem is that a "plain sense" reading often does not or cannot see features of the text like irony, word play, metaphorical writing, multilevel symbols, or other much more subtle features of communication that go far beyond, or sometimes in direct contrast to, what seems to be the "plain" meaning.


Related posts:

Seven Arguments that show that Universalism is a false doctrine

Degrees of Punishment in Hell

Jesus Said More about Hell Than Anyone in the Bible