The DNA Problem

There are dozens of DNA based micromachines in our bodies like the ATP Synthase which is a dual pump motor. The ATP Synthase has dozens of different parts; each is a protein which is formed from long strings of amino acids – 300 to 2,000 base pairs – which must be in a particular order, so they will fold correctly to perform a certain function.

But are there enough chances for evolution to occur since the universe began for evolution to work?


If every particle in the observable universe [1 × 10 to the 90th power] was a coin that flipped every Planck second [5.4 × 10 to the 44th power] since the beginning of the universe [4.32 × 10 to the 17th power - in seconds] there would be a max of ~ 1.07x10^133 events since the beginning of the universe. An average sized protein of 150 amino acids would take 7.2x10^195 to form via an unguided, purposeless, goalless process. That's more the amount of events in the entire history of the universe.


Note: ~1.07x10^133 takes into account the entire observable universe, but it's difficult to believe that particles outside the earth would affect evolution. Also, it's calculated from the beginning of the time [13.8 billion years] not the beginning of life [3.5 billion years], so the amount of total chances for evolution of life is much smaller. Somewhere around 2.5x10^61.

Also, there are vastly more ways of arranging nucleotide bases that result in non-functional sequences of DNA, and vastly more ways of arranging amino acids that result in non-functional amino-acid chains, than there are corresponding functional genes or proteins. One recent experimentally derived estimate places that ratio—the size of the haystack in relation to the needle—at 10^77 non-functional sequences for every functional gene or protein.

And we have many, many different kinds of these micromachines in our bodies. For instance, the ATP Synthase, the dual motor pump mentioned earlier, is part of the Electron transport chain; four other DNA based, multiple part micromachines.

Sorry, but the math just doesn't hold up for a purposeless, unintentional unguided process without a goal for all those necessary genetic changes in multiple proteins in multiple organs that needed to for the fish to amphibian transition. Not to mention all necessary genetic changes in multiple proteins in multiple organs for the the 20 to 35 he major phyla in the Cambrian explosion.

The design objection

Please don't say that design [purposeful, intentional guided process with a goal] is unscientific, since SETI looks for design [or artificiality - i.e. not generated by natural processes], an arson investigator can tell if a fire came about naturally or was started by a human, the police can determine if a death was natural or at the hands of a human, an archeologist can say whether it’s a just rock or an arrowhead, etc. 

An appeal to a designer is accepted in every field of inquiry, including biology - we can determine whether a virus, like Covid-19 was designed or was natural. An a priori non-design stance for evolution seems to be an a priori ideological conclusion, rather one that is driven by the facts

This is a God of the Gaps argument.

A God of the Gap argument assumes an act of God as the explanation for an unknown phenomenon. But I’m not citing an unknown phenomenon or a gap in our knowledge. I am using the inference to the best explanation and citing what we do know about DNA, the difference between fish and amphibians, in order to choose between design [purposeful, intentional guided process with a goal] over chance [a purposeless, unintentional unguided process without a goal].

Additional info 

We Have Been LIED TO About Origin Of Life (Renowned Organic Chemist Speaks Out) [Video]

How Organic Chemistry Convinced Me of the Creator [Article]

Finding God through science – an atheist discovers chemical evolution can’t adequately explain the origin of life [Article]

Scientist Explains HUGE Mathematical Problems For Atheism [Video]

Scientists Are Changing Their Minds (EVIDENCE For God!) [Video]

Degrees of Punishment in Hell

The idea that there are different levels of punishment in hell is known by most due to Dante's classic Divine Comedy where he writes of the nine circles of hell. The circles are concentric, representing a gradual increase in wickedness, and culminating at the center of the earth, where Satan is held in bondage. Each circle’s sinners are punished in a fashion befitting their crimes. Each sinner is afflicted for all of eternity by the chief sin he committed. According to Dante, the circles range from the light punishment of the unbaptized and virtuous non-believers to the very center of hell reserved for those who have committed the ultimate sin and thus get the harshest punishment.

Although the Bible does not specifically say there are different "levels" in hell, it does seem to indicate that judgment will indeed be experienced differently for different people.

The biblical authors are clear that hell is a place of divine judgment on sinners. Furthermore, many authors speak of more and less severe degrees of punishment, dependent on several factors in one’s life, which indicates that some will bear a fiercer measure of the wrath of God upon them.

The biblical writers and our Lord himself describe hell as a place of divine judgment on sinners. In multiple passages the ideas of punishment, wrath, retribution, and vengeance are prominent (Matt. 5:22; 8:12; 10:28; 13:42; 24:51; 23:33; 25:30; Mark 9:43–48; Luke 13:28; 2 Thess. 1:5–10; Rev. 20:10–15). The purpose of hell is not that of rehabilitation of the sinner or even the obliteration of evil. The purpose is retributive justice—the punishment of God on sinners.

The biblical writers are not content, however, to speak of hell broadly in terms of divine justice and retribution. They go further and insist that the divine justice in hell will be specifically fitted to the guilt of each individual offender. We will explore this teaching here in four steps: 

Biblical Evidence for the Degrees of Punishment Concept of  Hell

Below are some passages of Scripture that speak directly of degrees of punishment in hell. Here we will just cite the verses to establish the teaching in principle; then we will draw on them for specific exposition and application.

“Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (Matt. 10:15).

“But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you … But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you” (Matt. 11:22, 24).

“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36–37).

“And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more” (Luke 12:47–48).

“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed” (Rom. 2:5).

“How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29)

What is Meant by Degrees of Punishment

These statements of degrees of punishment in hell are not meant to suggest that there shall be anything less than perfect misery for every soul in hell. For every person in hell, it will be a place of “weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12), and this suffering will be forever (Rev. 14:11). No one in hell will have it easy. Hell will be a place of torment and misery for all who are there. Precisely how the degrees of punishment will be given out is not told us.

The Reasons for Degrees of Punishment

The infliction of punishment proportionately in degrees is an outworking of divine justice. Scripture repeatedly affirms that God will judge “in righteousness” (Acts 17:31) and that it is a function of God’s justice and glory to avenge every wrong (Rev. 16:1–7; 19:1–6). It is in the interests of divine justice that punishment will be given out according to the nature of the offense. We see a reflection of this, for example, in the Old Testament law which prescribed more severe punishment for premeditated murder than for accidental homicide. So also Moses’s law prescribed measures for restitution for various offenses. The nature of the crime, the attending motivations, and the varying circumstances all determine the measure of punishment.

This explains why Scripture repeatedly insists that judgment will be “according to works” (Rom. 2:6) and that in judgment “the books”—record books—will be opened (Rev. 20:12). There seems to be no point to this other than that of determining the measure of accumulated guilt, and that for the assigning the appropriate measure of punishment. This is why God the Judge will take into consideration the works, the words (Matt. 12:37), and even the thoughts and motives (Rom. 2:16) of sinners. Judgment is not merely for determining who is in and who is out; it is for measuring guilt and assigning punishment that is exactly what every individual sinner deserves.

The Basis for Determining Degrees of Punishment

What, then, will be the basis on which degrees of punishment will be determined? Scripture sets forth at least three considerations.

A) The Extent to which a Person has Abandoned Himself to Sin

The first consideration is the extent of the "abandonment to sin". This concept is entailed in Matthew 5:21 and other passages that indicate degrees of sin—worse sins result in worse punishment. This seems clearly to be the point in Romans 2:5—“Because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.” What can this mean but that every sin committed is like making a deposit in the bank and that in the day of judgment it will all be withdrawn in judgment? In judgment, every last sin will be taken into consideration in fitting each sinner for the exact degree of punishment deserved (Rev. 18:6–7).

It is the fool who reasons, “Well, if I’m going to hell, I might as well have my (sinful) fun in the meantime!” Every day given to sin, every venting of lust, every untruthful word, every next sin committed only adds to the punishment that will be assigned. It would be better for that man to die young than to live only to accumulate a lifetime of sin that will return to him in divine wrath.

B) The Extent to which a Person by Example and Influence has Led Others to Sin

The second consideration in measuring judgment is the extent to which a person who by example and/or influence has led others to sin. See Jesus' words in Matthew 18:5–7:

“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!” (See also Mark 9:38–47.)

Here Jesus pronounces a woe on those who become an occasion for others to sin. The degree to which a person influences others to sin will in turn serve, in part, to establish the degree of his own punishment.

This appears to be at least one reason why there must be a day of judgment at the end of time. Final judgment is not fixed upon the death of every individual sinner: it is not until the end of time that the full effect of the influence of any one life can be measured. The omniscient God will take every individual life and assess every aspect of its influence—sometimes an influence that extends for centuries. And based on the accumulated influence of evil, God will mete out punishment upon the wicked.

Jesus warns of this again in Matthew 23:13: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.” This “woe” is pronounced on those who by their actions and teaching block the way to heaven for others.

The thought is stunning and deeply sobering. The parent who refuse Christ and, in turn, influence their children away from the things of God thereby increasing their guilt and the punishment they will receive for it. That older brother or sister or that friend or work associate who stands above his or her peers and who uses their position to influence others to sin and to ignore the gospel—all of this will be brought to bear on the day of judgment to measure the degree of punishment deserved.

The extent of abandonment to sin and the degree of sinful influence on others will serve to determine the extent of punishment received.

C) The Extent to which Light and Privilege were Abused

The third consideration in measuring judgment is the extent to which light and privilege were abused. Jesus speaks to this directly in Luke 12:47–48:

“And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.”

The contrasting expressions—“severe beating” and “light beating”—indicate contrasting degrees of punishment. Both of the men in view here were servants accountable to their masters. Both did things that were worthy of punishment. And both in fact receive punishment. But the one had more understanding than the other and as a consequence received greater punishment. Differing degrees of light resulted in differing degrees of punishment. Both received lashes, but for the one it was “many”; for the other, it was “few.” And lest we miss the point, our Lord interprets the parable for us: “Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.” That is to say, the extent of light and privilege abused will determine, in part, the measure of punishment. (See also Rom. 2:12.)

Jesus speaks to this consideration elsewhere:

“Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (Matt. 10:15).

“But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you … But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you” (Matt. 11:22, 24).

As wicked and as guilty and as deserving of punishment as Sodom was, the greater sin belonged to Chorazin and Bethsaida, for they had seen and heard our Lord himself and had refused him. And for their abuse of such great light and privilege, their judgment will be the more severe.

Again, this is deeply troubling and sobering. The person who grows up in a society in which the gospel is readily available and the person who grows up in a Christian home has great light and privilege. The person who attends a gospel-preaching church has great light and privilege. The person who has a Christian friend who witnesses to him of Christ has great light and privilege. And for this light and privilege, God will hold them accountable—if such privilege is refused, judgment will be unspeakably great. For those who have heard the gospel only finally to refuse it, that gospel preached to them will in the end have served only to increase their guilt and enhance the punishment they will receive.

Conclusion

The punishment of hell will be in keeping with divine justice. The all-knowing God will assess each individual life, counting exactly the extent of abandonment to sin, the influence of others to sin, and the light and privilege abused, and he will assign punishment accordingly—exactly fitted to each person.

Surely this thought ought to capture the conscience of sinners such that they would restrain their sinning! Furthermore, this thought ought to drive any sinner to run to Christ and be saved! And surely this thought must drive every believer to humble yet glad praise for our Redeemer who took all of our sin to himself and paid its price in full, absorbing the full wrath of God in our place to make us his.

Whatever degrees of punishment hell contains, it is clear that hell is a place to be avoided.

Unfortunately, the Bible states that most people will wind up in hell: “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13–14). 

The question one must ask is “Which road am I on?” The “many” on the broad road have one thing in common—they have all rejected Christ as the one and only way to heaven. Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). When He said He is the only way, that is precisely what He meant. Everyone following another “way” besides Jesus Christ is on the broad road to destruction, and the suffering is hideous, dreadful, eternal, and unavoidable.

Fined-Tuned Constants

 

Consider some of the finely-tuned factors that make our universe possible:

• If the strong nuclear force were slightly more powerful, then there would be no hydrogen, an essential element of life. If it was slightly weaker, then hydrogen would be the only element in existence.

• If the weak nuclear force were slightly different, then either there would not be enough helium to generate heavy elements in stars, or stars would burn out too quickly and supernova explosions could not scatter heavy elements across the universe

• If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, atomic bonds, and thus complex molecules, could not form.

• If the value of the gravitational constant were slightly larger, one consequence would be that stars would become too hot and burn out too quickly. If it were smaller, stars would never burn at all and heavy elements would not be produced.

The finely tuned laws and constants of the universe are an example of specified complexity in nature. They are complex in that their values and settings are highly unlikely. They are specified in that they match the specific requirements needed for life.

The following gives a sense of the degree of fine-tuning that must go into some of these values to yield a life-friendly universe:

• Gravitational constant: 1 part in 10^34

• Electromagnetic force versus force of gravity: 1 part in 10^37

• Cosmological constant: 1 part in 10^120

• Mass density of universe: 1 part in 10^59

• Expansion rate of universe: 1 part in 10^55

• Initial entropy: 1 part in 10^ (10^123)

The last item in the list — the initial entropy of the universe — shows an astounding degree of fine-tuning. What all this shares is an incredible, astronomically precise, purposeful care and planning that went into the crafting of the laws and constants of the universe, gesturing unmistakably to intelligent design. As Nobel laureate in physics, Charles Townes stated:

Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.

Some scientists respond, “Well, there must be an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” That’s a possibility, and it’s a pretty fantastic possibility — it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. One would like to get a look at the universe-generating machine responsible for this abundance. Would it have to be fine-tuned? The other possibility is that our universe was planned, and that’s why it has come out so special.

William Lane Craig has a fantastic video explaining this:

God of the Gaps fallacy

Arguments from ignorance [which is what a GOTG is] occurs when evidence against one proposition is offered as the sole grounds for accepting an alternative. Thus, they have the following form:

Premise: Cause A cannot produce or explain evidence C.

Conclusion: Therefore, cause B produced or explains C.

It's easy it is to identify this type of fallacy, and how unreasonable it would be to use such thinking to try to prove any conclusion. Atheists and other skeptics often claim that the argument for God’s existence based on intelligent design is guilty of this type of illogical thought. How can the theist who is using the design argument show that it is not a God-of-the-gaps argument from ignorance?  

To depict proponents of the theory of intelligent design as committing the GOTG fallacy, critics must misrepresent the case for it. This misrepresentation of the design argument looks like this:

Premise: Material causes cannot produce or explain specified information.

Conclusion: Therefore, an intelligent cause produced the specified information in life.”

If this were how the design argument actually worked, there would be serious problems with it, and the skeptic would be right to challenge it as false. However, that this misrepresentation of the design argument leaves out a very important premise. The design argument includes the positive evidence that it implies:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no materialistic causes have been discovered with the power to produce large amounts of specified information necessary to produce the first cell.

Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information.

Premise Three: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate explanation for the origin of the specified information in the cell.”

Notice that there is no gap in the properly stated form of the design argument. 

1) We have been doing scientific research for hundreds of years. 

2) We have discovered that intelligence is the only entity capable of producing large amounts of specified information. 

3) We see large amounts of specified information in cells. 

4) Therefore, we are forced by what we know about intelligence from centuries of scientific research to conclude that the specified information in cells is the product of an intelligent Creator. 

On the other hand, we also know enough about how matter behaves to conclude that it is impossible to get the specified information from materialistic causes. Origin-of-life experiments have been done for decades that have shown how matter does and does not behave. In every single experiment done to date, we have seen that natural processes not only do not produce life, but they cannot produce life. This is not a gap in our knowledge. The argument for design is based on what we know to be scientifically valid in every instance.

Why, then, are so many skeptics convinced that the design argument is a God-of-the-gaps logical fallacy?

The reason for this is a prior commitment to naturalism - the idea that only the physical exists. If a person begins by assuming that there has to be a naturalistic process that brought about life, then that person is forced to see a gap in our current knowledge, since no naturalistic processes have ever (in any experiment under any circumstances) even come close to producing a living cell. 

What chemical [or other natural] process first produced life? Since no such chemical process has been discovered, we are told this is simply a gap in our current knowledge that will be filled in the future. 

Nevertheless, our present lack of knowledge of any such chemical process entails a “gap” in our knowledge of the actual process by which life arose, only if some materialistic chemical evolutionary process actually did produce the first life. Yet if life did not evolve via a strictly materialistic process but was, for example, intelligently designed, then our absence of knowledge of a materialistic process does not represent “a gap” in knowledge of an actual process. Stephen C. Meyer (2021), Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries that Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe pp 424

An illustration that a “gap” only exists if a person begins by assuming that all scientific explanations must be materialistic:

Imagine someone mistakenly enters an art gallery expecting to find croissants for sale. That is, he thinks the gallery is actually a fancy bakery. Observing the absence of pastries and rolls, such a person may think that he has encountered a gap in the services provided by the gallery. He may even think that he has encountered a gap in the staff’s knowledge of what must definitely be present somewhere in the gallery. Based on his assumptions, the visitor may stubbornly cling to his perception of a gap, badgering the gallery staff to “bring out the croissants already,” until with exasperation they show him the exit. Ibid., p. 424.

The moral of the story? The gallery visitor’s perception of a gap in service or in knowledge of the location of the croissants derives from a false assumption about the nature of this establishment or about art galleries in general and what they typically offer to visitors.

There is only a gap if a person will not accept what we know scientifically to be true. We “do have extensive experience of intelligent agents producing finely tuned systems such as Swiss watches, fine recipes, integrated circuits, written texts, and computer programs.” Furthermore, “intelligence or mind or what philosophers call ‘agent causation’ now stands as the only known cause capable of generating large amounts of specified information.” And “it takes a mind to generate specified or functional information, whether in ordinary experience, computer simulations, origin-of-life simulation experiments, the production of new forms of life, or, as we now see, in modeling the design of the universe.” Ibid., pp 338, 187, 385

Conclusion

The design argument for the existence of God is not an argument from what we do not know, or we do not understand about the Universe and life in it, but instead is an argument based on the aspects of nature that we have reasons to conclude to be true. As John Lennox has stated, “I see God not in the bits of the Universe that I don’t understand, but in the bits that I do.” 

Muratorian Fragment

Also known as the "Muratorian Canon," the fragment is an ancient manuscript consisting of 85 lines, is a Latin manuscript bound in a roughly 8th-century codex that includes a list of New Testament books; affirming 22 out of the 27 books. Including all four Gospels, the book of Acts, all 13 epistles of Paul, along with Jude, 1 John and 2 John, and Revelation. (3rd John is included but disputed)

While the fragment itself dates from the 7th or 8th century, it contains features suggesting it is a translation from a Greek original written in the late 2nd century (c. 170–200).

 This is remarkably early to have such a comprehensive canon, and thus widespread agreement regarding most of the books of the New Testament by the end of the 2nd century.

It mentions the non-canonical Apocalypse of Peter but testifies to the fact that not everyone was in agreement about its authority. So while there definitely was some disagreement over certain books,  there was also general agreement over most of them.

It references the Shepherd of Hermas as a book that was widely read and appreciated among early Christians but was rejected as Scripture because it was written "very recently in our times."

This counters the claim that someone or some council chose the books of the NT since  as early as the late 2nd century (100 years or so after the last of the Apostles died), there was a core canon that was affirmed by Christians and accepted as Scripture on par with the Old Testament.  It also supports the idea that the NT was written early

See this early canon list
​

There is NO evidence for God!

I hear the "There is no evidence for God" line all the time from atheists and other critics, but I think that it's untrue; there IS evidence for God.

An analogy: The Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, but that doesn't mean that there is no evidence for the Steady State universe or a cyclical universe. It just means that the Big Bang Theory explains more of the data/evidence better than those other two. The same data/evidence is used by all three.

Similarly, Christians, atheists, and other critics all see the same data/evidence, however Christians offer an explanation but atheists, and other critics usually do not.

The data/evidence

1) Reason is the basis for all knowledge - thus one cannot default to scientific explanations.

2) Philosophical Naturalism is logically incoherent, thus 1) one cannot default to physical explanations; 2) we now have at least one reason to see non-physical explanations as reasonable.

3) Our thoughts are not just brain activity, rather they are the result of an immaterial mind thus, we now have a second reason to see non-physical explanations as reasonable

4) A metaphysically necessary, efficient cause solves the problem of an infinite regress of causes

5) the origin of DNA is more likely on design than chance.

6) The fine-tuning of the universe is more likely on design than chance or necessity - thus, given all the above, a transcendent metaphysically necessary God is the best explanation for life as we know it.

7) Jesus was a historical person, see also Bart Erhman, NT Scholar agnostic/atheist where he says ["no question Jesus existed"] since there are many, early, independent sources.

8) Jesus' resurrection was historical rather than a myth

Conclusion: Sans the presumption of philosophical naturalism, 1–8 above, and the explanation offered for each, offer a critical thinker good reasons to conclude that the Christian God is the best explanation for the world as we know it.

If atheists and other critics with "I don't know" or "I'm not convinced" then they are admitting that they do not have any explanations and tacitly conceding that the Christian has the better explanation.

If one has no better explanation(s), why reject the Christian's?

Objection A - This is a God of the gaps fallacy

Reply: I’m not citing a gap in our knowledge and saying "God did it". This is a series of arguments; first showing that reason is the basis for knowledge not science; second, that must be a non-physical aspect to reality; third that design is a better explanation for our existence and life; fourth that God is the best explanation for whom that designer is.

Objection B - The theory of the existence of a mind makes no predictions, thus there can be no evidence for it. 

Reply: It doesn't need to. You seem assuming that it must meet the criteria for a scientific theory, but this is a logical argument. See point 1 Reason is the basis for all knowledge - thus one cannot default to scientific explanations.

Objection C - this is just a list of assertions based on your own ignorance, incredulity, and gullibility; that's not evidence for God. This is just "apologist goulash"  

Reply:  You are just sticking your head in the sand, refusing to engage in a discussion of the evidence/data/arguments. 

Objection D - You might want to post this on a Reddit sub where you debate atheists, not Christians. I'm sure the Christians here could offer some constructive feedback, though.

Reply:  In my experience: 1) there are enough atheists in Christian subs to get feedback/debate, 2) what I mostly get on when I used to post atheist Subreddits is derision and downvotes, no intelligent discussion. Look at the current comments on Reddit. Additionally, Christians can be edified, educated, and enriched with this.

Objection E - Your points/arguments are incredibly inaccurate

Reply: Which ones specifically and where exactly are the errors for each? 

Objection F - Is the universe really so perfect? It’s extreme and harsh. Completely inhospitable for life, with vast excesses of empty space. Is that the mark of design?

Reply: When scientists speak of fine-tuned universes, they are referring to universes that are life-permitting. By life-permitting, they do not mean that life can exist wherever, or whenever, or that it's a paradise, or that there is no suffering/death; they do not even guarantee that life will exist. It’s a much more modest claim. It only holds that the fine-tuning will permit the existence of life. That’s it.

Objection G - You misunderstand what constitutes evidence.

Reply: Evidence is an item or information proffered to make the existence of a fact more or less probable. Evidence can take the form of testimony, documents, archaeological finds, DNA, etc

DNA is evidence. The findings of neuroscience for an an immaterial mind is evidence. Fine-Tuned Constants is evidence. Philosophical Naturalism is logically incoherent is evidence

Objection H -  Where you see design, others see chaos.

Reply: What better explains the Fine-Tuned Constants of the universe? Design, or chaos? Why?

What better explains the multitude of DNA-based micromachines like the ATP Synthase? Design, or chaos? Why?

SETI looks for design [or artificiality - i.e. not generated by natural processes], an arson investigator can tell if a fire came about naturally or was started by a human, the police can determine if a death was natural or at the hands of a human, an archeologist can say whether it’s a just rock or an arrowhead, etc. An appeal to a designer is accepted in every field of inquiry, including biology - we can determine whether a virus, like Covid-19 was designed of was natural.

An a priori non-design stance seems to be an a priori ideological conclusion, rather one that is driven by the facts

Objection I -  The problem with this is sooner or later we hit a brute fact. I say that the fact is there are natural laws that describe how reality functions.  You say, because a magic guy made it that way.  We can show the laws, testable, repeatable, and consistent.

Reply: First, you cite "reality"; so what is reality, and how do you know? 

It can't be Philosophical Naturalism since it's logically incoherent and since Reason is the basis for all knowledge this seems to be how we should evaluate arguments

And the "magic guy" is better understood as A metaphysically necessary, efficient cause 

Additional info

Atheist Engineer Explains How Reason Led Him To GOD (Part 1) [Video]

Jesus according to non-Christian accounts and archaeological evidence within 150 years of his life

 

The evidence of Jesus outside of the Bible confirm that the Jesus story in the NT is rooted in history. This is because the core outline of most of the Jesus story is attested by sources who had access to independent information outside of the Bible. The pieces of evidence listed display here claim or imply the following about Jesus:

1. Jesus existed.
2. Jesus was an important distinguished person (possibly The James Ossurary,Mara bar-Serapion, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata). Josephus calls Jesus a "sophos aner," which implies that Josephus thought of Jesus was an extremely important person. As Ulrich Victor points out (2010), this phrase commonly referred to men of very high importance in both Josephus' writings and outside of his writings in ancient Greek literature. People who are called σοφὸς ἀνήρ outside of Josephus' writings include people like Socrates (Plato, Apol. 18b:7), Plato (Chion. Ep. 5.1), along with Aesop, Solon, Thales, Xenocrates, Aristotle, Themistocles, Pindar, etc. If the phrase "if indeed it is right to call him a man" is authentic, as I think, then not only does this imply that Josephus saw Jesus as an important man, but also an extraordinary one. However, as Victor argues, the phrase "wise man" (which is typically taken as authentic by scholars) was more exclusive than the phrase "if indeed it is right to call him a man." In short, I don't see any reason to take the less exclusive phrase as inauthentic than the more exclusive phrase ("wise man"), which is nevertheless taken as authentic by most (see Bart Ehrman's blog cited below for this claim). Mara-bar-Serapion also compares Jesus to Socrates and Pythagoras, both famous and important people in the ancient world. Lucian explicitly calls Jesus a "distinguished personage."
3. Jesus was born in a village in Judaea (Celsus).
4. Jesus had a father named Joseph (James Ossuary), or a Roman soldier named Pantera (Celsus). The latter is clearly reflective of Jewish polemic.
5. Jesus had a brother named James (James Ossuary, Josephus).
6. Jesus claimed to be born of a virgin (Celsus).
7. Jesus was poor (Celsus).
8. Jesus went to Egypt out of poverty (Celsus).
9. Jesus was wise (Mara bar-Serapion, Josephus).
10. Jesus was law observant (Celsus).
11. Jesus did miracles (Josephus, Celsus). The early Mishnaic Sanhedrin 43a also attests to this. The words "παραδόξων έργων" (startling deeds), which are used in the TF, often refers to activity of divine/supernatural elements in Josephus' books (e.g., Ant. 2:223, 267, 285, 295, 345, 347; 3:1, 14, 30, 38; 5:28, 125; 6:171; 9.14, 58, 60, 182; 10:28, 235; 13:282; 15:379; Ag. Ap. 2:114). In addition, every person in Josephus' works that are called a "wise man" are also described as having supernatural powers.
12. Jesus was a teacher and a lawgiver (Mara bar-Serapion, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata).
13. Jesus taught that all of his followers are "brothers" (Lucian of Samosata).
14. Jesus claimed to be "a god" (Celsus).
15. Jesus founded various rites (Lucian of Samosata).
16. Jesus gained many followers that did not cease after the crucifixion (Josephus, Tacitus).
17. Jesus was known as the Christ (Josephus).
18. The Jewish authorities accused Jesus and handed Him over to Pilate (Josephus). Mara bar-Serapion also attests to Jewish involvement.
19. Jesus was crucified by Pilate in Judaea during the reign of Tiberius (Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata).
20. Jesus was resurrected from the dead and appeared to many (Josephus, see below).

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.  [Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63 -Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.]

This sentence from the Testimonium Flavianum [TF] though, if original, has interesting implications for the appearance to the 500 as reported by Paul and his pre-Pauline apostolic informants, because Josephus says that Jesus appeared to "them," with the "them" referring to the followers who did not yield after Jesus' death, which in turn refers back to the "many" Jewish and "many" Greek followers that Jesus gained during his life. 500 is "many."

(A) The James Ossuary (62/63 C.E.) "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." There has been huge controversy over the inscription on this ossuary. The ossuary itself is not a forgery, but many question the latter half of the inscription on the ossuary which references Jesus. The inscription says: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Another large group of scholars think that this is authentic (or at least plausibly so) and refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The reader may be interested in a scholarly piece here by Pieter W. van der Horst (Leiden: Brill, 2014) which I think offers very valid critiques against the biased and unprofessional decision of many of the members of the IAA, who ruled the inscription on the ossuary as forged or redacted.

Some also doubt whether the reference to James being the father of Joseph and the brother of Jesus is specific enough to conclude that the ossuary is James the Just's, since Jesus, James, and Joseph were all common names at the time. According to a calculation by Tel Aviv University statistician Camil Fuchs, it is 95 percent likely that only four people of first century Jerusalem named James would have a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus. However, the fact that the inscription specifies that James was the brother of Jesus indicates that this Jesus was an important figure. Only one other ossuary from the ancient world ever studied mentions the brother of the deceased. Further reading: Is the “Brother of Jesus” Inscription a Forgery? · A to this ossuary being authentic is the testimony of Hegesippus (170 CE). Jodi Magness says: "Hegesippus’s testimony suggests that James was buried in a pit grave or trench grave marked by a headstone (stele)" - Magness, Stone and Dung, Oil and Spit, p. 176.

"The evidence that James was buried in a grave dug into the ground and not in a rock-cut tomb renders the controversy over the “James ossuary” moot" - Magness, Stone and Dung, Oil and Spit, p. 179.

However, while Hegesippus may have some useful kernels of information of James' death to supplement Josephus (especially since he was raised in Palestine [though he wrote later in Rome]), he is largely unreliable and legendary in his account. 

First, clear legend can be detected in the depiction of James as a Nazirite high priest. He even mentions James going into the Temple alone, just like the high priest on the day of atonement. This is probably legend or embellishment and seems implausible. 

Second, he seems to try and parallel the death of James with the story of Stephen's death in Acts. 

Third, the account of Hegesippus claims that James was buried "on the spot" of his death, and that his burial was "by the Temple."

However, as Yaron Z. Elia points out (HTR, 2004), "scholars felt uneasy with such a positioning because it appears to contradict Jewish law. Strict halakhic rules forbid any sort of impurity in the temple area, making a grave at the site of the temple highly unlikely; indeed, a human corpse is considered the most potent source of impurity. Yet proposals that would resolve these difficulties by relocating the tomb elsewhere—for instance, to the ravine east of the city known as the Valley of Jehoshaphat (see fig. 2.3)—are totally at odds with the picture drawn by the tradition. Hegesippus repeatedly underscores the close proximity of James’s tomb to the temple. Not only does he formulate the site’s name as the “pterygion of the temple,” he also locates the burial site and monument, which according to him survived to his day, in the immediate vicinity of the temple’s shrine" (p. 42). Finally, if Hegesippus is right, it seems strange that James' grave site would be identifiable after the Jewish war, where the Temple was razed to the ground,

(B) Mara bar-Serapion (~73 C.E.) "What advantage did the Athenians gain by murdering Socrates, for which they were repaid with famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, because their country was completely covered in sand in just one hour? Or the Jews by killing their wise king, because their kingdom was taken away at that very time? God justly repaid the wisdom of these three men: the Athenians died of famine; the Samians were completely overwhelmed by the sea; and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, are scattered through every nation. Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the new laws he laid down."

Mara Bar-Serapion, a non-Christian Syriac philosopher, probably had knowledge of Jesus, who, if so, is labeled as the "wise king." Cicero doesn't mention Spartacus by name either, and he is our earliest source for Spartacus. Do historians reject that as a source for Spartacus? No! Arguing that Mara bar-Serapion is referring to another unattested person is ad hoc. No other person in ancient history that was claimed to be the king of the Jews was killed by "the Jews" except Jesus, as Serapion says. Indeed, the whole range of the features of the wise king doesn't fit anyone else except Jesus: the people who caused his death, his new law, the connection of the wise king's death with the Jewish war, etcetera.

Serapion also compares this wise king to Socrates and Pythagoras, so no bloke, that's for sure. Mara Bar-Serapion says that the wise king was killed unjustly by "the Jews," and that the 'wise king' lived on because of his new teachings. Serapion also links the 'wise kings' death with the Jewish war. Thus, he is likely partially or fully dependent on Christian thought. In my opinion, Serapion would likely date in the 70s C.E., though there is disagreement in scholarship, with some scholars dating it later. Most scholars support the early dating in the 70s C.E., however (e.g., Ilaria Ramelli; Michael Blomer; David Rensberger; Annette Merz; Teun L. Tieleman; Ephrem-Isa yousif; Gerd Theissen; Fergus Millar; Craig A. Evans). The fact that the author of this letter was not Christian (he speaks openly about "our gods," for example) is significant, since he gives his non-believing opinion that Jesus was an important figure. He is also independent of the Gospel stories if he dates in the 70s C.E.

(C) Josephus (93 C.E.) About this time there comes Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is right to call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds and was a teacher of such people that receive the true things with pleasure. He won over many Jews, but also many of the Greek element. He was ["called" or "known as"?] the Christ. When Pilate, at the accusation of the principal men among us, had condemned him to a cross, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease doing so. For he appeared to them having a third day living again, for the divine prophets had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after this fellow, has still to this day not disappeared. (Antiquities 18:63-64)

“Ananus . . . assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others. And, when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned." (Antiquities 20:200).

"Much of the past impetus for labeling the textus receptus Testimonium a forgery has been based on earlier scholars’ anachronistic assumptions that, as a Jew, Josephus could not have written anything favorable about Jesus. Contemporary scholars of primitive Christianity are less inclined than past scholars to assume that most first-century Jews necessarily held hostile opinions of Jesus, and they are more aware that the line between Christians and non-Christian Jews in Josephus’ day was not as firm as it would later become. The implication of this is that supposedly Christian-sounding elements . . . cannot be ruled inauthentic a priori" - Alice Whealey, "The Testimonium Flavianum in Syriac and Arabic," NTS, 2008, pp. 575.

"In recent times, with gradually more balanced discussions of the text, the authenticity of the passage, or at least an authentic core, seems to be increasingly accepted, except perhaps that many scholars will agree that Jerome (Vir. ill. 13) may well have been right in translating credebatur esse Christus, instead of the Greek text's ὁ χριστὸς οὖτος ἦν, 'he was the Christ,' his translation being supported by the Syriac version." - Jan N. Bremmer, "Ioudaismos, Christianismos and the Parting of the Ways," in Jews and Christians – Parting Ways in the First Two Centuries CE?, Walter De Gruytur 2021, pp. 69-70.

(i) Arguments Against the Whole-Sale Invention of the TF.

First, the episode of John the Baptist has no obvious connection with the TF. John appears to be an independent person in Josephus, unlike in early Christian theology. The John episode also awkwardly appears after the TF in Ant. 18., whereas John's ministry is before Jesus' in early Christian theology (such as in Eusebius' quotation of Josephus). This all points to an original Jesus and John passage.

Second, the Testimonium is much shorter than many other preachers Josephus speaks of. If a Christian editor was as audacious as to forge an entire paragraph, it would be much longer and elaborate. And compared with any Christian text of the second to fifth centuries, it is for the most part very bland. Nothing about son of God, coming from God, pre-existence, Trinitarianism, Holy Spirit, atonement, being in Christ, shed blood, gone to heaven, about to return in the clouds, reluctance of Pilate, etc. etc. The only real puzzles are the Christ clause and the resurrection sentence. J.C. Paget points out: "Where we can be certain of the existence of Christian additions to Josephus as well as glosses, they strike a more aggressively Christian note" (Paget, “Some Observations on Josephus and Christianity," The Journal of Theological Studies, 2001, pp. 600).

Third, the language used in most of the TF is very specific to Josephus, and at times uses language that was considered negative by Christians. For the former point, the Greek construction πολλοὺς μὲν . . . πολλοὺς δὲ also seems Josephan in style (e.g., J.W. 1:146, 322, 383, 2:49, 177, 341, 4:643, 5:562; Ant. 7:194; 15:296; 20:98). For example, Ant. 15:296 says: "many [πολλοὺς μὲν] of his allies in the war as well as many [πολλοὺς δὲ] of the neighboring populations." Another way that this passage appears typical of Josephus is the plural noun ("Jews") followed by the singular adjective ("of the Greek [element]"), which Eusebius changes to "many Jews and many Greeks." Josephus making a noun from an adjective (as he does here), or a noun from a participle plus an adjective is a technique Josephus used commonly (especially in Ant. 17-19!).

This seems far too specific for a Christian editor to replicate centuries later author technology. For two examples of the latter, first, it's difficult to see how a Christian interpolator would have chosen the word ἡδονῇ to include in his passage if it were not originally from the pen of Josephus, because it has strongly negative connotations in all uses in the NT: Luke 8:14; James 4:1, 3; Titus 3:3; 2 Peter 2:13 (ἡδονὴν). Eusebius changes the text to "those who revere the truth." Tibor Grull (2020, pp. 19), Bermejo-Rubio (2014, pp. 354, n. 130), and Graham Twelftree (1999, pp. 305) rule out a whole-sale interpolation of the TF from this alone. Josephus was often not someone who held back on negative language on people he disliked, and we don't seem to have a clear contextual indicator which shows this to be the case. Instead, we have to glean and speculate what Josephus thought about Jesus through statistics on certain words and phrases, which is inconclusive when taken together as will be shown here.

Second, the word ἐπηγάγετο occurs twice in the NT, it is used negatively both times (Acts 5:28; 2 Peter 2:1), which points against a later Christian addition. Eusebius omits this word and replaces it with "σεβομένων." Ken Olson however has recently tried to reignite the hypothesis that Eusebius forged the entire TF, since he is the first to quote it, and adopts much of Josephus' language. But Sabrina Inowlocki writes that "this has not found support among scholars" - Inowlocki, “Josephus and Patristic Literature,” in A Companion to Josephus, Wiley Blackwell 2016, p. 359.

Alice Whealey likewise says that "the overall thesis of fabrication by Eusebius has not been generally accepted in the scholarship" - Whealey, "The Testimonium Flavianum," in A Companion to Josephus, p. 352. See Alice Whealey's essay in the book called Josephus und das Neue Testament (Mohr Siebeck, 2007) for convincing arguments against Eusebius inventing the TF. Eusebius never even explicitly pointed out/highlighted important parts of Josephus' passage on Jesus which he quotes in his works. For example, Josephus mentions how Jesus did miracles. Except Eusebius never stresses this detail. This in spite the fact that the reference to Jesus' miracles in Josephus would have been useful in his rebuttal to those who denied that Jesus did miracles (see Whealey 2007: 80), and in spite of the fact that Eusebius explicitly highlights more mundane portions of the TF (such as the mention of Jesus gathering many followers). Eusebius also highlights other details in other Josephan works, such as the Jewish War in his anti-Jewish rhetoric to prove that the Jews suffered for killing Jesus, in contrast to the more "Christian" sounding parts of the TF. Eusebius also doesn't ever highlight Josephus' hesitation in calling Jesus a man, his mention of Jesus being the Christ, or the resurrection sentence. This fits with how Eusebius used Josephus to back up Christian doctrine as a non-believing Jewish person. For Eusebius, Josephus being a non-believer was extremely important, and so inventing and/or touching up the TF passage would have gone against his interests.

Fourth, Steve Mason argues:

"The order of his identifiers suggests that he chooses James as representative of the condemned group because he is ‘the brother of the one called [or known as] Christos’, already known to the audience. James’ name comes as an afterthought. This formulation suggests, therefore, that Josephus has mentioned someone ‘known as Christos’, recently enough for his audience might remember. The only plausible candidate is Jesus in Book 18." (Mason, "Sources that Mention Jesus from Outside the Circles of Christ-Followers," Jesus-Handbuch (ish), 2017, p. 12)

Some try and relate Ant. 20:200 to Jesus ben Damneus, but the Greek in 20:203 is constructed in such a way as to introduce this figure to his audience. In addition, as TimO'Neill points out here, this view entails that Josephus employs appellations to both Jesus' in a way he does nowhere else. Alice Whealey writes that the authenticity of the Jesus reference in Ant. 20.200 is "accepted by most contemporary scholars" - Whealey, "The Testimonium Flavianum," in A Companion to Josephus, 2016, p. 353.

(ii) Josephus' Source of Information.

If anyone has the greatest chance at having heard of Christians and Jesus from outside Christian sources, surely it is Josephus of Jerusalem. Josephus was born around 37 C.E., shortly after Jesus' death. Gary J. Goldberg points out (2021, pp. 32) that Josephus notes in Vita, 9 how he grew up in Jerusalem with "principal men" which Josephus mentions in the Testimonium, who would have chiefly been 30-60 years old (some younger, some older).

These men Josephus grew up with are who Josephus got his information regarding pre-70 Judaism from and are thus a possible source of information for Jesus and indeed for the other first century Jewish preachers. Supporting this is the mention the principal men that Josephus says handed Jesus over to Pilate is said to come from "among us," since Goldberg points out in his 2021 article (pp. 19) that: "in historical narrative, Josephus takes care to write in the third person." But here he doesn't. He combines "principal men" with "among us," which he does nowhere else. 

If Josephus just wanted to say the "principal men among us" to mean that these principal men came among us in the sense of being Jewish people of his own class, Josephus could have used his more typical phrase seen in e.g., Ant. 14.165 ("the principal ones of the Judaeans"). This all may imply that Josephus knew at least some of these people who are said to hand Jesus over to Pilate. It is also possible that he heard about Jesus from Ananus II or the Jewish leaders related to James’ death in the early 60s when Josephus himself was in Jerusalem. Ananus II was the son of Ananus, who interrogated Jesus (John 18:13-14).

(iii) A Note on the Scholarship of the Tone of the TF.

Bermejo-Rubio has to admit: "the overwhelming majority assert nowadays that it was originally neutral" (Fernando Bermejo-Rubio, "Was the Hypothetical Vorlage of the Testimonium Flavianum a 'Neutral' Text?," JSJ, 2014, pp. 327). See Tibor Grull's 2020 article for critiques of negative tone like that argued by Rubio. 

Josephus was often not someone who held back on negative language on people he disliked, and we don't seem to have a clear contextual indicator which shows this to be the case. Instead, we have to glean and speculate what Josephus thought about Jesus through statistics on certain words and phrases, which is inconclusive when taken together as will be shown here. One shouldn't be too worried about Josephus' tone. 

In addition to what was pointed out above vis-à-vis tone, Josephus was a complex writer, who had no single agenda. He often changed his appraisals of individuals between his Jewish War and Antiquities, because of the works’ different issues (Herod and family, Ananus II, Simon son of Gamaliel). AND even when discussing the same person (e.g., Saul, Gaius Caligula, Nero) he can say ‘positive’ things while being generally critical. Josephus was not a robot who held onto simple views of things. 

No reason to think that Josephus would have been so negative personally about Jesus. Consider Josephus' mention of the fate of Jesus’ brother James: he and others were executed by the rather savage Sadducee Ananus II, in a brief moment when there was no Procurator. Josephus points out that all the fair-minded people thought that Ananus had behaved illegally and immorally in executing James, and he also seems to personally have thought the same. So why would Josephus be overly critical, whom he describes chiefly as a Judaean teacher of virtue (not as crucified son of God, etc.).

(iv) ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων ("For he appeared to them having a third day living again, the holy prophets having foretold these things and many other marvels about him"). 

In support of authenticity here, first of all, are the words "having a third day...," which does not match the Christian story since it implies that three days already passed, as opposed to "on the third day" (which Eusebius changes it to) in the inclusive way of counting days. 

Second, the phrase "having a third day" is rare in not only the NT, but other Greco-Roman writers in general. However, the phrase "having X days" (with "days" as the object of ἔχω) is very at home with Josephus, appearing in e.g., Ant. 2:72; 3.290; 5:327; 7:1; 9:223; 14:96. 

Third, the phrase ἄλλα μυρία is Josephan (see e.g., Ant. 8:382; J.W. 2:361). 

Fourth, the words "divine prophets" has an almost exact parallel in e.g., Ant. 10, where Isaiah is called a divine prophet. Other places where the words "divine" and "prophet" occur close to together include Ant. 6:222; 8:243; 9:60; 10:180. For a similar phrase (τοῦ θεοῦ προφήτης), see Ant. 8:402; 9:33, 211; 10:92. 

Fifth, some sort of mention of the resurrection to Jesus' followers in some way "provides a better explanation for the fact that, as the text asserts, the Christians continued to remain attached to Jesus" (Bermejo-Rubio 2014, pp. 354, n. 90). 

Sixth, Josephus avoids the typical resurrection verbs such as egeiro, used especially in the New Testament, in keeping with Josephus elsewhere. Seventh, there is little evidence for an interpolation in the manuscript tradition or the versions. While the text seems to imply that the author actually believed Jesus rose from the dead and the prophecy connection, there are many places where Josephus appears to agree with things that elsewhere he rejects, most obviously giving plausible speeches to characters he doesn’t like. Most importantly though, much of what Josephus writes in the Antiquities is from someone else’s report, and so having an oratio obliqua (e.g., "they reported...") would have gone without saying. Alice Whealey also says the construction of the Greek doesn't necessarily imply a claim of belief for Josephus.


(4) Tacitus (~115 C.E.)

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular." (Annals 15:44)

Tacitus was a Roman historian and is typically considered one of the most reliable and careful ancient historians of the period by modern historians. He is probably reliable in what he writes, especially if he is independent from Christians. Tacitus reports that Jesus (a) was crucified by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius, (b) was the founder of the Christian sect in Judaea, and (3) had followers who spread Christianity even further after Jesus' death.

Tacitus: Independent Information?

For one, Tacitus thought of Christians as “a most mischievous superstition ... evil ... hideous and shameful." This does not seem like words one would expect from someone willing to accept information from Christians, whether directly or indirectly. This is especially since Tacitus disliked hearsay stemming from street gossip and the "popular report" (see Annals 4:11), which Tacitus would have considered Christians surely. 

Moreover, nothing in Tacitus' passage suggests as Christian source, since he makes no mention of anything that indicates a purely Christian origin. Pliny, on the other hand, in reporting what Christians said, mentions hymns sung to Jesus "as to a god." There is actually a more likely source of information that Tacitus got his information about Jesus from: the aristocratic Jewish exiles who were in Flavian court as he was. This included Princess Berenice, the daughter of Herod Agrippa. 

One has to keep in mind that the Jesus Sect began in Galilee, and Tacitus was at court with the daughter of the Herod Agrippa of Galilee who was a contemporary of Jesus and tetrarch of Galilee shortly after Jesus' death. Someone like her would have been more keenly accepted by Tacitus, since she was much closer to his class, was not despised (unlike Christians), and would have had relevant information on Jesus from reliable sources.

(5) Lucian of Samosata (~165 C.E.)

"... the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world. (Lucian of Samosata, The Passing of Peregrinus, 11)

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws." (Lucian of Samosata, The Passing of Peregrinus, 13)

Lucian of Samosata was a Syrian satirist who references Jesus. It is possible that Lucian of Samosata provides us with an independent tradition regarding Jesus's crucifixion, too, since he uses a word to describe the crucifixion with a Greek word that ancient Christians are never documented as using ("stauroun" = "impaled") for the crucifixion of Jesus. 

Plus, Lucian detested Christians, and so probably would have been less keen on accepting their information. 

Finally, Lucian isn't entirely accurate in his representation of Christian practices, which may suggest that he didn't interact much with Christians. Scholars like Craig Evans and Paul Eddy support Lucian of Samosata relaying a tradition of Jesus' crucifixion independent to that of Christians.

Nevertheless, writers like Tacitus and Lucian show that Jesus' crucifixion was an accepted fact by Romans in the second century. Lucian also records Jesus being the originator of many of the Christian rites, as well as being a teacher or lawgiver. Lucian also seems to imply that the "crucified sage" was considered important ("distinguished personage").

(6) Celsus (~175 C.E.)

Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery with a soldier named Pantera. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god. (Origen, Contra Celsum 1.28)

Celsus was a second century Roman philosopher and critic of Christianity. The books criticizing Christianity from Celsus are lost but quoted by Origen, who wishes to try and debate Celsus. While Celsus knows much about the Christian story from Christian literature, the evidence suggests that he is also relying on ancient Jewish tradition. Origen even explicitly says that Celsus is relying on Jewish polemic. 

Second, what Celsus says parallels ancient second century (or earlier) Jewish polemic in reflected in Tosefta 2:22-23, where people in Galilee are scolded for healing in the name of "Jesus son of Pantera" (Tosefta 2:22-23). As in Celsus, there is a tradition that Jesus was born of a person named Pantera. Adolf Deissmann showed in 1906 that "Pantera" was a surname for Roman soldiers in particular, and later Talmudic sources from the early fourth century CE show that ancient Jewish people were claiming that Jesus was born from a Roman soldier named Pantera explicitly. 

As for historical datums of Jesus, he attests to a lot. Outside of this quotation, Celsus also says that Jesus claimed to be born of a virgin and was law observant. The major question is whether the earlier Jewish polemical source reflected by Celsus is wholly reliant upon Christian information, which is ambiguous. 

That seems unlikely, however. Indeed, Markus Bockmuehl for instance cites Ernst Bammel who claims that there may have been independent tradition concerning Jesus in Jewish circles until the year 500 CE (This Jesus, p. 184). One also cannot accept on face value many of the points made in this account of Jesus, since it is polemic. However, Celsus seems to be working off of core facts here which could have been relayed to him by his earlier Jewish source. Plus, he can't be totally inaccurate in his account, since no one would have taken his arguments seriously if he was.


Honorable Mentions and Possible Sources

Thallus (49-52 C.E). Dale C. Allison Jr. writes: "Thallus was a pagan or Samaritan historian who wrote a history of the eastern Mediterranean world from before the Trojan War to his own day, which was the middle or latter part of the first century C.E. His work, composed in Greek, has perished and is known only through mention in later writers. Among these is the ninth-century Byzantine historian George Syncellus who, in a quotation from another lost history, that of the early third century Christian Julius Africanus, refers to Thallus' words about the darkness that accompanied the death of Jesus (cf. Matt 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44) . . . Yet the fact that the latter states his disagreement with Thallus' interpretation—"This, it seems to me, is contrary to reason"—strongly implies that Thallus was offering a mundane explanation for what had happened when Jesus died" - Dale C. Allison Jr., "Thallus on the Crucifixion," in The Historical Jesus in Context (Princeton University Press, 2006), pp. 405-406. 

In short, I think the way Julius Africanus/George Syncellus responds negatively tips the scales in my direction. Benjamin Garstad puts it this way: "There has been unwarranted doubt as to whether or not Thallos actually wrote about the Crucifixion or merely an eclipse . . . If Thallos had not connected the darkness at the Crucifixion to an eclipse, he would not have been censured by Synkellos for explaining a miraculous sign as a natural event" - Benjamin Garstad, ‘Thallos’ in Brill’s New Jacoby, Ed. Ian Worthington et al., Brill Academic Publishers, 2007.

Pliny the Younger (111 C.E.). Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan. Pliny is relying upon Christian information here (but not the Gospels), and he confirms that early Christians worshipped "Christ" as "a god." Pliny also gives us information as to how these ancient Christians he encountered in Bithynia worshipped before the writing of this letter. He does not give any information about the historical Jesus though aside from his existence, and so is not included.

Suetonius (119-122 C.E.). See John Granger Cook, "Chrestiani, Christiani, Χριστιανοί: a Second Century Anachronism?," Vigiliae Christianae, 2020, p. 253 for a recent defense of Suetonius having mentioned Jesus of Nazareth. Chrestus was a common misspelling of ‘Christus’ as the substitution for ‘e’ for ‘i’ was a common itacistic error. For example, the original hand of Codex Sinaiticus has the spelling (Chrestianos) in the three NT of the term ‘Christian’ (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). 

However, Suetonius may imply that 'Chrestus' was in Rome in the late 40s CE, which wouldn't fit. Then again, if Irenaeus could claim that Christ was crucified during Claudius’s imperium, maybe this mistake is forgivable. If Suetonius attests to Jesus' existence, he also attests to the presence of a Christian populace influential enough to cause the Jewish people to cause instigations and be kicked out in the city of Rome in the 40s C.E. Things are not certain though. While many NT scholars think Suetonius does have Jesus of Nazareth in mind, some classical historians disagree with this view. Since he doesn't provide any evidence of the historical Jesus aside from his existence, and since this can be disputed to be a reference to Jesus after all, Suetonius is not included in the main list.

"Contemporary or shut up!" That these documents were not contemporary and therefore are not reliable is a non-sequitur. It doesn't necessarily follow. The "it must be contemporary" rule is not used by any contemporary credentialed historian of today. Of course, such sources are preferable, but most documents in the ancient world were not contemporary to the events recorded in them. Such people or events were the exceptions, not the rule. For example, the first written source attesting to the existence of king Archelaus of Cappadocia is Josephus in his book Jewish War, around 60 years after his death. 

Another example: only six sources attest to Spartacus within 150 years of his life, the earliest of which doesn't explicitly name Spartacus by name (Cicero), and another of which is lost (Varro), with the rest being short passages written decades or a century after the events. None of the sources to Spartacus were witnesses nor were they written during Spartacus' life. 

If we want to dismiss the later references to Jesus at the end of the century and in the next, do we do this with all ancient sources that are not contemporary? Markus Bockmuehl argues in his book Seeing the Word: Refocusing New Testament Study that the date of a source doesn't necessarily become a serious problem for the core of the story until we are 150+ years out from the events. Indeed, the 100–150-year timeframe after an event is when 'living memory' ends (e.g., when people who knew eyewitnesses typically all die out). Hence the time frame used here.