The argument usually goes something like this post found on Reddit — I'll post it here in full below in blue:
What is a discrepancy? According to Webster's it is the quality or state of disagreeing or being at variance or an instance of disagreeing or being at variance.
This is closely related to the term “contrary”: either of two terms (such as good and evil) that cannot both be affirmed of the same subject; though both may be false they cannot both be true; incapable of harmonious coexistence or are logically incongruent
Since the phrase “completely different information” is used, I assume that what is meant is these accounts are incapable of association of harmonious coexistence.
Matthew 28:1-10
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.” And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
Mark 16:1-10
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. They were saying to one another, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?” Looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. And he said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping.
Luke 24:1-10
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has [a]risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” And they remembered His words, and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.
John 20:1-3
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.” So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb.
Each account might present a slightly different perspective due to the author's emphasis, bias, geographical location, or social status. But no historian says these differences equate to contradiction, and the whole Alexander the Great story, or the bulk of it, is a myth.
If historians don't dismiss the Alexander the Great story as myth, why do critics try to use this standard with Jesus?
Question: Where in the verse does it say that Jesus first appeared to Cleopas and another?
The two Marys
These are not minor discrepancies, such as “which color was Jesus' cloak?”, “were there angels or shining men at the tomb?” or “did Jesus ride on a colt or a donkey?”, these are factual discrepancies, in sense that one source says X and the other says Y, completely different information.
Tomb Story:
1. When did the women go to the tomb?
Tomb Story:
1. When did the women go to the tomb?
Synoptics: Early in the morning.
John: Night time.
2. Which women went to the tomb?
John: Night time.
2. Which women went to the tomb?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, and Joanna.
Mark: Mary Magdalene, Mary of James, and Salome. [1]
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, and Joanna.
John: Mary Magdalene and an unknown person. [2]
3. Did the disciples believe the women?
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, and Joanna.
John: Mary Magdalene and an unknown person. [2]
3. Did the disciples believe the women?
Matthew: Yes.
Mark: No. [3]
Luke: No, except Peter.
4. Which disciples went to the tomb?
Mark: No. [3]
Luke: No, except Peter.
4. Which disciples went to the tomb?
Luke: Peter.
John: Peter and Beloved disciple.
John: Peter and Beloved disciple.
Sequence of Appearances:
5. To whom did Jesus appear first?
5. To whom did Jesus appear first?
Matthew: The women as they fled.
Mark: Mary Magdalene while inside the tomb.
Luke: Two disciples (one of them Cleopas). [4]
John: Mary Magdalene while inside the tomb.
Paul: Peter.
6. Afterward, Jesus appeared to?
Mark: Mary Magdalene while inside the tomb.
Luke: Two disciples (one of them Cleopas). [4]
John: Mary Magdalene while inside the tomb.
Paul: Peter.
6. Afterward, Jesus appeared to?
Matthew, Luke, and Paul: The Twelve. [5]
Mark: Two disciples (one of them Cleopas).
John: The Ten (Thomas wasn't there)
7. How many of the Twelve were present when Jesus appeared?
Mark: Two disciples (one of them Cleopas).
John: The Ten (Thomas wasn't there)
7. How many of the Twelve were present when Jesus appeared?
Synoptics and Paul: All of them. (11) [5]
John: The Ten (Thomas wasn't there).
Notes
1. the original Gospel of Mark says that multiple women went to the Tomb, but the Longer ending mentions Mary Magdalene alone.
2. At first seams like Mary Magdalene went alone to the Tomb, but in John 20:2 she says:
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and “we” don’t know where they have put him!”
3. The original Gospel of Mark ends with the women silent, because they where afraid, but I considered the Longer ending in this case, where the Disciples didn't believe Mary Magdalene
4. When the Two disciples went to say to the Twelve that they've seen Jesus, Peter already had a vision of Jesus, Mark says that after Mary Magdalene Jesus appeared directly to the Two disciples, but Paul says that Peter got the vision first, I preferred to give priority to Mark, but that's another conflicting information.
They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”
5. The Twelve and “All of them” (as Paul says) in this case is the Eleven, cause Judas Iscariot was already dead, the Twelve described by Paul means the name of the group, it's like saying: “I met the Justice league” but Batman wasn't present.
John: The Ten (Thomas wasn't there).
Notes
1. the original Gospel of Mark says that multiple women went to the Tomb, but the Longer ending mentions Mary Magdalene alone.
2. At first seams like Mary Magdalene went alone to the Tomb, but in John 20:2 she says:
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and “we” don’t know where they have put him!”
3. The original Gospel of Mark ends with the women silent, because they where afraid, but I considered the Longer ending in this case, where the Disciples didn't believe Mary Magdalene
4. When the Two disciples went to say to the Twelve that they've seen Jesus, Peter already had a vision of Jesus, Mark says that after Mary Magdalene Jesus appeared directly to the Two disciples, but Paul says that Peter got the vision first, I preferred to give priority to Mark, but that's another conflicting information.
They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”
5. The Twelve and “All of them” (as Paul says) in this case is the Eleven, cause Judas Iscariot was already dead, the Twelve described by Paul means the name of the group, it's like saying: “I met the Justice league” but Batman wasn't present.
End of quoted post
Review and Response
What is a discrepancy? According to Webster's it is the quality or state of disagreeing or being at variance or an instance of disagreeing or being at variance.
So are these 7 discrepancies/contradictions incapable of harmonious coexistence or are logically incongruent?
1. When did the women go to the tomb?
Read the passages
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.” And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
Mark 16:1-10
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. They were saying to one another, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?” Looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. And he said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping.
Luke 24:1-10
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has [a]risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” And they remembered His words, and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.
John 20:1-3
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.” So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb.
1 - When did the women go to the tomb, answered:
John 20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark,
Matthew 28 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. So it was still dark.
Mark 16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought aromatic spices so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, at sunrise, they went to the tomb.
So what is the difference between, “while it was still dark”, “as it began to dawn”, and “at sunrise” if they all have the idea of darkness or darkness breaking? Answer: None.
John 20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark,
Matthew 28 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. So it was still dark.
Mark 16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought aromatic spices so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, at sunrise, they went to the tomb.
So what is the difference between, “while it was still dark”, “as it began to dawn”, and “at sunrise” if they all have the idea of darkness or darkness breaking? Answer: None.
Excursus
I just want to point out that here are differences in accounts of Alexander the Great's campaigns. Some historians like Plutarch and Diodorus providing more anecdotal and philosophical perspective. Arrian focused on a more factual military chronicle, often drawing from sources like Ptolemy's memoirs which could sometimes exaggerate his own role in events; this can lead to discrepancies in the portrayal of battles, motivations, and Alexander's character across different accounts.
Some accounts might portray Alexander as having a more harmonious relationship with his commanders, while others could highlight tensions and conflicts, particularly with figures like Cleitus. Some accounts suggest Alexander was driven by a desire to conquer the known world, while others emphasize his pursuit of divine status and cultural unification.
Each account might present a slightly different perspective due to the author's emphasis, bias, geographical location, or social status. But no historian says these differences equate to contradiction, and the whole Alexander the Great story, or the bulk of it, is a myth.
If historians don't dismiss the Alexander the Great story as myth, why do critics try to use this standard with Jesus?
If the critic is unaware, they should educate themselves and judge the Resurrection accounts with the same historical standard.
If the critic is aware, then this is just a blatant double standard fallacy — Judging similar two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard. It invaldates their argument and seriously undermines their intellectual integrity.
2 - Which women went to the tomb, answered
Matthew mentions two women by name. Mark mentions three by name. Luke mentions at least three by name but describes more. John only identifies Mary Magdalene.
2 - Which women went to the tomb, answered
Matthew mentions two women by name. Mark mentions three by name. Luke mentions at least three by name but describes more. John only identifies Mary Magdalene.
Note that Matthew doesn't say that there were only 2 women; Mark doesn't say that there were only 3 women; John doesn't say that there were only 1 woman.
When examining the number of women present at the tomb of Jesus, the four accounts could all be seen as accurate representations of what really happened if the group of women included the following people:
The Gospel authors (and the early Church) certainly had the opportunity to change the descriptions of the women to make sure they matched, but they refused to do so. As a result, we can have confidence in the reliability of these accounts.
Another factor for accuracy and authenticity: In a culture hesitant to accept the testimony of women in civil and criminal hearings, the authors of the Gospels offered women as the first witnesses of the empty tomb. If this is a late fictional account, one might wonder why the authors didn’t insert Nicodemus or Joseph of Arimathia in this role. They would certainly have made the account more credible to the first hearers. Instead, all the authors describe women as the first eyewitnesses. This “negative information” makes the account more credible. Women weren’t described here to make the narrative more convincing (they actually hurt the account), but were instead described because they happen to be the true first witnesses.
When examining the number of women present at the tomb of Jesus, the four accounts could all be seen as accurate representations of what really happened if the group of women included the following people:
- Mary Magdalene
- Mary the mother of Jesus,
- Mary the Mother of James (and Joseph),
- Salome, and
- Joanna.
The Gospel authors (and the early Church) certainly had the opportunity to change the descriptions of the women to make sure they matched, but they refused to do so. As a result, we can have confidence in the reliability of these accounts.
Another factor for accuracy and authenticity: In a culture hesitant to accept the testimony of women in civil and criminal hearings, the authors of the Gospels offered women as the first witnesses of the empty tomb. If this is a late fictional account, one might wonder why the authors didn’t insert Nicodemus or Joseph of Arimathia in this role. They would certainly have made the account more credible to the first hearers. Instead, all the authors describe women as the first eyewitnesses. This “negative information” makes the account more credible. Women weren’t described here to make the narrative more convincing (they actually hurt the account), but were instead described because they happen to be the true first witnesses.
5. To whom did Jesus appear first?
Read the passages
Cleopas and another
13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther, 29 but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.. Luke 24:13-31
Answer: It doesn't
Cephas
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve 1 Corinthians 15:4-5
Cephas
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve 1 Corinthians 15:4-5
Question: Where in the verse does it say that Jesus first appeared to Cephas?
Answer: It doesn't
The two Marys
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.” 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Matthew 28:1-9
Note: Both Mary's met Jesus after they departed... from the tomb [vs 8-9] - but the text doesn't say anything about this being a first appearance; so was there a prior appearance?
Mary Magdalene
9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. Mark 16:9
So Mary Magdalene first saw Jesus at the tomb, then after departing, both Marys saw Jesus. The other passages say that others saw Jesus but none say nor imply that they were first.
Mary Magdalene
9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. Mark 16:9
Note: Here Mary Magdalene is clearly portrayed as the first to see Jesus post-Resurrection
11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. John 20:11-14
11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. John 20:11-14
Note: We get a little more detail about Mary Magdalene seeing Jesus prior to departing the tomb, she saw Him but didn't recognize Him.
So Mary Magdalene first saw Jesus at the tomb, then after departing, both Marys saw Jesus. The other passages say that others saw Jesus but none say nor imply that they were first.
Thus, there is no contradiction about whom Jesus first appeared to post-Resurrection
*************************************************
Note: this is a work in progress, I will address all 7 "contradictions" in the near future.
No comments:
Post a Comment